Patterns formed by murder locations

[RivkahChaya]

Oh, I've well understood your post. What's the exact value of Kelly's word, in your opinion ?

Not so bad that I automatically assume the exact opposite of anything he says must be true, like in Bizarro world, or something.

Sort of an interesting conundrum with Eddowes. She states that she is going to get a damn fine hiding when she gets home. What better way to appease her companion than to come home and present him with a pocket full of money.

Huh? "Pocket full"? That's a lot of tricks to turn at that time of night, in that state.

Nevermind-- the whole discussion got started because another poster who shall not be named suggested that JTR got somehow, I don't know, excited by the idea of a prostitute, as though they were wearing scarlet Ps you could see from a distance. Which Mary Kelly may have, figuratively, seemingly the one genuine pro among them. She may have done some small thing that hasn't come down in the record, like wearing lipstick, or a certain combination of colors, that signified when she was on the job, or used code words, the way pros now ask if men are looking for a "date," which is an old-fashioned word that people don't use much (in the US) in any other context anymore (I used to live in Manhattan, so yes, I know what I'm talking about, but no, I've never been a sex worker myself).

Nichols and Chapman were soliciting, we know that, but they may not have known whatever the code was, and been less smooth about it. We don't know for sure that MJK is a real JTR victim, and we don't know whether she was actively soliciting. That she was a pro may have been a coincidence.

If JTR were looking for textbook prostitutes, because the idea of the sex profession got him going, somehow, then you'd think he'd be finding his victims in brothels, not among the "I just need my doss money" women.

The prostitute thing really isn't significant as far as who the victims were, in that JTR was actively seeking sex workers. I think he was just seeking women who would go somewhere alone with a man they didn't know. You have to remember how uncommon it was for women to go out alone at night back then. I very much doubt that if JTR had found a woman alone for some other reason besides soliciting, and discovered that she wasn't a prostitute, he would have turned away an easy mark for someone who fit his victim profile better, and that may be what happened to Catherine Eddowes. She was alone, because she'd been alone at a much earlier time, and then had been detained involuntarily.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike.
Nice example of hyper-criticism, I must say.

Hi David,

I believe context is the important factor when applying labels to these women, these were circumstances, not character issues.

As to Catharine, the statements made by landlords and her boyfriend indicate that she did not as a habit work the streets, rather she enjoyed some degree of domesticity with Mr Kelly. If the witnesses are to be believed of course.

She had also returned that week from hopping, demonstrating that she would leave town in order to find "honest" work when it was available.

Her stating that she would get a "hiding" is obviously a remark to Hutt that had no meaning, since she went the opposite direction of "home" when she was released.

It appears she was hiding some truth...just like her aliases.

Cheers

[DVV]

Sort of an interesting conundrum with Eddowes. She states that she is going to get a damn fine hiding when she gets home. What better way to appease her companion than to come home and present him with a pocket full of money.

Indeed. Really don't know where they want to go with these "unfortunate vs prostitute" arguties.

Not too many people come home after a long night of drinking and still have money in their pocket. I know this from personal experience.

Héhé ! so true !

[c.d.]

Sort of an interesting conundrum with Eddowes. She states that she is going to get a damn fine hiding when she gets home. What better way to appease her companion than to come home and present him with a pocket full of money. But if she came home quite late at night obviously drunk, what would her companion assume was the source of that money? I find it hard to believe that he was unaware of what she was doing. Not too many people come home after a long night of drinking and still have money in their pocket. I know this from personal experience. What a wonderful world it would be if you could come home after a long night of drinking and have more money than when you started.

c.d.

[DVV]

Oh, I've well understood your post. What's the exact value of Kelly's word, in your opinion ?

[RivkahChaya]

So you're suggesting she was the kind of woman that would never have sex for money ?

What? How on earth did you get that out of my post? I even said that it's possible she solicited at one time or another in the 30 some years of her adult life. I'm just thinking it's reasonable to assume she had a destination in mind when she left the police station, and was not actively soliciting.

There's a difference, at any rate, between actively soliciting, and considering an offer when approached, although I don't know how likely it is for someone to approach a woman who isn't actively soliciting.

For what it's worth, I don't know that there's a woman (or kind of woman, whatever that means) who would never, ever have sex for money, given the right circumstances, but for most women, there are a lot of safety nets between their current position, and circumstances that dire. I can tell you that there's probably a sum of money out there at which point I'd relent. It's pretty high-- more money than most people see in a lifetime-- and I'd need to see the negative HIV test, and the condom.

Anyway, Eddowes had grown children. Who knows what her life might have been like when they were little, but she know longer had that worry. She may not have been at the most desperate point in her life when she died, since she at least had no one but herself to look after.

[DVV]

Hi Rivkah

We don't know specifically where Eddowes was going, but she said she'd get a "damn fine hiding when [she] got home," so she's presumed to have some destination that she would refer to as home, where she was meeting someone she knew. Then, we have the word of her long-time companion that she expressly was not a prostitute.

Whether she ever, in her life, fell into "Unfortunate" circumstances, I don't know, but I'm willing to assume she wasn't soliciting when she met her killer.

So you're suggesting she was the kind of woman that would never have sex for money ?

[RivkahChaya]

We don't know specifically where Eddowes was going, but she said she'd get a "damn fine hiding when [she] got home," so she's presumed to have some destination that she would refer to as home, where she was meeting someone she knew. Then, we have the word of her long-time companion that she expressly was not a prostitute.

Whether she ever, in her life, fell into "Unfortunate" circumstances, I don't know, but I'm willing to assume she wasn't soliciting when she met her killer.

[DVV]

Hi Mike.
Nice example of hyper-criticism, I must say.

[Michael W Richards]

Regarding the issue of whether the Canonical Group were all "prostitutes", thats a term that can only be applied if the woman in question did that work by choice, and she did it for a living. Women who engaged in sex for money on the streets, on occasion, as a last resort to get money for food or shelter, were called Unfortunates.

It seems reasonable to place Polly, Annie, Liz and Kate in that category, ..however Mary seems to have done little else but sell herself throughout her short life, so it seems reasonable to categorize her as a prostitute. One footnote on Kate is that she was apparently living in a relationship that had her off the streets and with her mate each night, so its unclear to what extent she may have had to rely on solicitation.

Now...which of them was actually soliciting the night they are murdered? Polly said she was trying to earn her doss, Annie said she was trying to earn her doss, we do not know why Liz Stride was at 40 Berner or if she had made sleeping arrangements, we do not know what Kate intended to do after being released from jail, and Mary did not have to raise any money on the night she was killed to pay for her room and bed.

So 2 of the 5 were known to be actively soliciting the night they are murdered, the same 2 by the way that were almost certainly killed by the same person.

So '"profiling" the Victimology based on solicitation is applicable in 40% of the alleged Ripper murders...hardly a trend.

Cheers

[curious]

On poor old, sick, dying Annie I do have doubts, she may just have been wandering the streets, and if anything came along she wouldn't turn it away.

Phil H

Hi, Phil,
For some time now I have considered that Annie went to 29 Hanbury because she knew the house, having sold crochet work there to Mrs. Richardson and perhaps was aware that people went into the house to sleep.

I think that Annie was too sick and too tired to work and so went somewhere she knew she could sleep.

curious

[andy1867]

Thanks for that Phil....did he conduct with a wooden baton...or something sharper? lol
Regards
Andy

[Phil H]

Gilbert would be the one to suspect - he went for long solitary walks on first nights. Sullivan had an alibi - he was conducting the orchestra!

[andy1867]

Sherlock my friend...nip onto "D'onston for dummies" and post where I post you don't annoy the natives that way...
I know the subject invites question after question...but a simple search on the forum, or google using a couple of keywords usually directs you to your answer...google usually directs you to a thread on this very site ..and theres your answer...and usually the question you have..has already been asked..its quite remarkable.
Some folk...quite rightly, get exasperated going over the same old ground..and eventually A newbie like yourself gets exasperated by getting the same sarcastic rebuffs...and we all fall out....."D'onson for dummies" is a thread to let that sort of acrimonious steam leave the kettle...the more knowledgeable members can either pop in to have a laugh at us...and perhaps gently point in the right direction... and everybody is happy...on the plus side its where...in time, i'm going to accuse Gilbert and/or Sullivan...but i'm still researching.....
"3 little maids from School"...Really???...

[Phil H]

SH

The meaning of "give has been explained by others. I confirm that is my intended use of the word.

But if you are probing the "soliciting" angle - then I believe Martha, Polly, and Annie were all clearly or by implication seeking sex for money when they were killed.

On poor old, sick, dying Annie I do have doubts, she may just have been wandering the streets, and if anything came along she wouldn't turn it away.

I think MJK had probably been soliciting and done business on the night of her death, but I am unsure about some of the descriptions.

Stride I think was waiting for a Jewish "boyfriend" who had gone into the International Club. All the indications are she was on a "date" that night and had not been soliciting. I think Kidney found her there, they argued and on impulse he killed her.

Phil H