New Ripper angle

[Rubyretro]

I also believe that Gorman believed his own story - it was Knight who embellished and expanded it, until it bore little resemblance to what "Hobo" himself held to

.

So we almost agree...

[Rubyretro]

Ha,Ha,( Erich von Daniken , Chariots of the Gods ) close ..

moonbegger .

[/QUOTE]

Ah yes, well I almost said 'Chariot of the Gods' (I remember it, alas, and some lot of aryan greek thetans); Thor was 'Kon Tiki' (rather more 'creative' and low tech)...same date (more or less), and same combat...

[Phil H]

So we almost agree...

In which case I immediately reverse my arguments!!!!

Agreement would be fatal to Casebook - imagine threads full of people trying to help each other, building positively on ideas.... being constructive....

Wouldn't work.

Seriously, I don't think there is much light between us. But with Gorman, I wonder if he knew, in the end, where truth lay.

Phil H

[moonbegger]

Hi all,

Warren wrote that he thought Socialists WERE NOT responsible, but he did think that some unnamed 'secret society' was responsible for the murders. I don't recall him EVER mentioning anyone by name as a personal suspect, lest of all General Millen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Ahh ,,, So Warren may have voiced some suspicion's after all
The plot thickens !

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Read up on the Viennese informer Jonas, and then try to square it with all the other arrant nonsense swirling around at the time.

Regards,

Simon

[Stephen Thomas]

Was Joseph Gorman honest ? I would guess probably 'nobbled' by Stephen Knight. I just think that persuasive authors know how to elicit desired responses from their interviewees. It might not even be conscious.

No, the Gorman story came out first in the Barlow and Watt TV series.

The Knight book appeared about three years later.

[Bridewell]

The ancients believed that the birth and death of great men were accompanied by major astrological or supernatural events. There seems to be a modern equivalent which insists that major figures can't succumb to a banal death: Diana can't have been killed in a road accident. JFK can't have been bumped off by a lone gunman etc. Hence there must have been a conspiracy and/or cover-up - preferably both. Of all the conspiracy theories, I think the Jack the Ripper Royal Conspiracy the least plausible - by a distance.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Abby Normal]

The only "conspiracy" involving Tumblety that could be even remotely plausable is one that only him and one or perhaps two other people would be involved. As in, Tumblety paid someone else to procure his specimins for him (he does not seem the type to get his hands dirty)and they went about it by killing prostitutes. I could see Chapman (or maybe Legrand) involved with this sort of setup. or perhaps one of his gay lovers/prostitutes.

[RivkahChaya]

I think the Royal theory, centered on Prince Eddy has its genesis in the unfortnuate situation of his father Albert, Prince of Wales, 'Bertie' who became King Edward VII.

There's another aspect to conspiracy theories, and to Prince Eddy, in particular, which is that anyone who is even slightly paranoid sees criminal conspiracy behind any slightly furtive behavior.

Have you ever heard of Jim Garrison? He was the District Attorney of New Orleans for a while, and he brought a guy named Clay Shaw to trial for conspiring to kill Pres. Kennedy. Shaw was acquitted, but his life was ruined, and Garrison got a book deal, which became the basis of the movie JFK, where Garrison was played by Kevin Costner.

Clay Shaw never committed any crime, but he was involved in a lot of underground activities, because he was gay. He was gay, and a fairly prominent businessman, in a very religious town in the 1950s and 60s. He used a fake last name when he went to bars and parties, and a lot of the bars and parties operated almost like secret societies, so prominent people wouldn't get outed.

Jim Garrison somehow couldn't figure out the difference in having to be secretive about his sex life, because of people's homophobia, and having to be secretive, because he must be a criminal, or a communist, or both. It's true that Oswald was in New Orleans for a while before moving to Texas, and he was a communist, but he was openly so, not secretive. Jim Garrison was nuts. I read his book. He was nuts.

Anyway, I wondered if something similar didn't happen to Prince Eddy. I've heard that he was gay, and I wondered if he didn't get involved in some secretive comings and goings because of that, and the royal family was involved in some cover-up conspiracy, of Eddy's homosexual encounters, and people who could see that some sort of furtive behavior was going on, but were too much products of their times to think "Oh, gay," looked for something else.

Aside from anti-gay sentiments at the time, I'm assuming it would be particularly bad to have an heir to the throne not interested in women. In fact, I'm thinking that might even be a bad thing for the royal family to deal with now, even in the 21st century.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good evening Rivkah,

Yes the Clay Shaw debacle. And that was a cornerstone of the very wrong movie JFK.

No, Eddy wasn't gay. He was a straight, twenty-something royal prince in the prime of his life. Not one of the jaded middle-aged fobs who frequented homosexual brothels. It was a lawyer's ploy to help his client, an employee of the royal family by implying to drag Prince Albert Victor (PAV) into it. The lawyer did it.

Roy

[RivkahChaya]

No, Eddy wasn't gay. He was a straight, twenty-something royal prince in the prime of his life. Not one of the jaded middle-aged fobs who frequented homosexual brothels. It was a lawyer's ploy to help his client, an employee of the royal family by implying to drag Prince Albert Victor (PAV) into it. The lawyer did it.

Ah. That makes sense. Of course, it's still possible that people who see conspiracy everywhere tend to multiply them. I mean, the same kind of mind that tends to see conspiracies where there are none, also tends to combine them. You know, there was thinking in one corner that Marilyn Monroe just couldn't have overdosed on alcohol and sleeping pills-- she must have been murdered. And in another corner, conspiracy theories about the president that include the mafia, among other people, and then someone has to combine the two, and decide that Marilyn Monroe knew something, and needed to be silenced, so the mafia had her murdered-- because, you know, sleeping pills and wine are so their style. The fact that Monroe died before Kennedy doesn't faze anyone-- it just goes to show how long people had been planning the assassination.

When was the first time someone suggested Prince Eddy as the actual Ripper, BTW, as opposed to being involved by way of marrying a Catholic?

Another question-- I realize that public figures weren't as well-known visually to people as they are since newspapers began printing photos, and since Movietone News, but how recognizable would Prince Eddy have been? If he went to a Catholic priest in some small church somewhere, with Annie Crook, and asked for a wedding ceremony to be performed, what are the chances that the priest would recognize him, and refuse to do it?

[Roy Corduroy]

Dr. Thomas Stowell wrote an aricle suggesting PAV was the Ripper in 1970. The gentleman was 85 years old and died the same month. So there wasn't a lot of follow-up. Yes any Catholic priest would recognize the prince.

Roy

ps Stewart Evans wrote a very fine tuned article about the origin here http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...nsorigins.html

[Krinoid]

What nobody comments on on is why PAV was linked to Cleveland Street twice in two completely different stories that supposedly have nothing to do with each other at all.
And same for Abberline.

[Phil H]

Krinoid - Abberline was a police officer, he got assigned to cases.

Or do you believe, as I have said elsewhere, that ALL the cases Abberline investigated in his career were linked?

Phil H

[moonbegger]

Hello all ,

I still dont get where this is a Conspiracy Theory ?

I think the term Conspiracy theory is in it self a conspiracy made up by people who have questions they really dont want to answer, regarding situations they really wish were not made public in the first place !

We would all love the answers to be simple , but sometimes they are not , sometimes people lie in order to keep the truth from getting out , it happens in all walks of life, with all kind of people , in all kinds of situations, No one is above scrutiny , The Police ,The Pope , the Government, Politicians, all should be held accountable for their actions , and if they are suspected of being less than truthful or honest with the people who are paying their wages then let them answer . And if they are then found to be less than honest , they will be guilty of Hiding the truth .. No more , no less.

If it looks like shite , smells like shite , tastes like shite , chances are ?

I believe it is extremely naive to discount any realistic possibility that cannot be factually discredited solely on the basis of the Herd term " Conspiracy theory " You see once the conspiracy blanket has been thrown over a particular subject, each and every fact contained there in ( some true) gets lost forever , and we loose the ability to judge or merit a particular piece of evidence as to exactly what it is , From there on we can only see it as what it is perceived to be by others .

Having said that ! I do believe the "Royal caper" as told by Gorman may well be mostly Betty Swollocks .. but was there possibly some facts contained within Sickerts original telling of the story that may still have a base in reality ?

Thats my conspiracy rant Not that it has any relevance to this thread .. Did Tumblety instigate the story ? And did he , or he and an accomplice , murder and attempt to implicate the Freemasons ?
See No Conspiracy here !

moonbegger.