New Ripper angle

[kensei]

Didn't Joseph Gorman (who I don't believe was Sickert's son- and it never was proven was it?) admit at some point that the entire royal conspiracy theory was, in his words, "a whopping fib"? I would think that settles it.

[Phil H]

I think things do sometimes happen in history. Harold Macmillan's famous quote "Events dear boy!" just about sums it up.

As far as Tumblety had a plan is concerned - it doesn't work for me, I'm afraid.

First, I'm not sure it reflects a C19th way of thinking - much more C20th post -Watergate (exactly when Stephen Knight's book was written and published).

Second, I doubt one man could even think of trying to control such a grandiose plot, and as we know from the ACTUAL events of 1888, things can run off in their own courses.

Third, I don't think that outside a few minds there would be much link between the monarchy and freemasonry - oh, there were always royal freemasons, I think Edward VII was an initiate (though I don't know how active he was); his brother the Duke of Connaught was very much a leading mason... but would an American have known that?

Third - was there more than a single male "brothel" in Cleveland Street?

Fourth - if someone did leave masonic "clues" they weren't very clever. I don't seem to see us all picking these up with abandon and saying "Hey it MUST be masonic!!" Until Knight's book, I don't think anyone had linked the Hogarth illustration to the case.

Knight himself certainly did have a huge hatred of freemasonry and wrote a further book - The Brotherhood" - about police involvement with freemasonry. I think the whole thing started with him.

So sorry, I don't buy it.

Phil H

[Roy Corduroy]

Good evening Moon,

My college history teacher said 'all events in history are the result of previous events and circumstances.' Things don't just happen.

As an American who became interested in the Ripper case, I have also been reading more history of Britain. I think the Royal theory, centered on Prince Eddy has its genesis in the unfortnuate situation of his father Albert, Prince of Wales, 'Bertie' who became King Edward VII. In his long wait as a royal prince he created a less than ideal image which was later projected onto his son by some rather unscrupulous people who really had no business doing that. The Freemason bit came in because in the 1970's there was a great anti-establishment wave. Questioning everything and painting much of it with a broad conspiratorial brush. Think Bermuda Triangle. It doesn't really matter to me if Gorman made it up, heard it from his dad, or even if Walter Sickert was his dad I am satisfied the expert demolishers, indeed atomizers long ago debunked it. It might have been exciting at the time.

Tumblety entered the picture when Stewart Evans came across the Littlechild letter and proceeded to write a book. People don't thank Stewart enough for that because Fancis Tumblety, no matter what you think or what role you cast him in, provides a source of endless fascination.

Roy

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Thanks for posting this. There is a good bit here, and it is difficult to address every point.

But I would like to remark upon one thing, and that is the symbolism of the Tabram killing.

Here is a real experiment you may perform. Take a pillow and pretend that it is Martha. Let's say you are ready to kill. Now, use a common ball point pen (a Bic will do) as a knife. (Be sure to leave the cap on and don't get TOO zealous!)

Begin stabbing and keep count--from 1-39. Be sure to let your gaze wander about somewhat, recalling you are in a semi-public place and someone could appear at any moment.

A question.

Were you able to keep count?

Cheers.
LC

Yes , i do that all the time Lynn just for jolly ( Not really )

[lynn cates]

counting

Hello MB. Thanks for posting this. There is a good bit here, and it is difficult to address every point.

But I would like to remark upon one thing, and that is the symbolism of the Tabram killing.

Here is a real experiment you may perform. Take a pillow and pretend that it is Martha. Let's say you are ready to kill. Now, use a common ball point pen (a Bic will do) as a knife. (Be sure to leave the cap on and don't get TOO zealous!)

Begin stabbing and keep count--from 1-39. Be sure to let your gaze wander about somewhat, recalling you are in a semi-public place and someone could appear at any moment.

A question.

Were you able to keep count?

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello all ,

I have a quite bizarre theory that's been bouncing around my head for the past few days now , and in the words of a much greater authority than my self , i wouldn't mind " running it up the flag pole " it's nothing new in regards to a suspect but a combination of a well known suspect, a well known theory and a completely new perspective that could link them both together .. I'm sure there are quite a few wrinkles in it , and to be honest , that's why i am posting it , to see if we cant iron out a few of them out ! either that or toss back into the bin.

There has been much written about the Royal Conspiracy and the Freemasons . Books , Films and documentaries have all played their part in persuading a large number of people worldwide that it really is the only Solution ! Did Joseph Sickert make the whole thing up ? I think he was told a story and he believed it . True or not , i think the origin of the story is equally , if not , more important than the story its self . Where would Walter Sickert hear such a story , and who would he be rubbing shoulders with that may have passed it on to him , and why would someone start such a vicious rumour in the first place ?

Who would want to bring the Royal family to their knee's, along with the Freemasons , and who also had a violent hatred of prostitutes ? This got me thinking of a Suspect that could tie it all together. A major suspect that had both the financial clout , along with links to the East End and the West End .. Someone who could have well been the original source of Walter Sickerts Royal conspiracy Slander (which was no doubt embellished and handed down to his son Joseph). The story may well of had had its origins in the Bohemian cafe and bars of Cleveland street , even its gay brothels ! who , and why , would someone start such a rumour involving the Freemasons and the Royal Family ? Maybe someone with not the best of intentions regarding the British Empire .. someone who may well have been disgruntled even furious at being "Black Balled" by the Freemasons ? This would be a clear opportunity to take out two birds with one stone ! Put the monarchy on shaky ground as well as undermine the Freemasons , the pillars of power that be ! As well as picking up a few uterus's for his collection !

Could all this be the work of Irish-American Fenian Francis Tumblety ?

Was these murders committed on the lowest of the low in Whitechapel , some kind of political statement aimed at the highest of the high , were the victims of Jack the Ripper simply accessible and expendable pawns in someones game ? Further more is it also then plausible that such a disgruntled individual or group of individuals would want to point an accusatory finger at the very people they feel are above and beyond repercussion. What if certain false Clues were deliberately left laying about by Tumblety pertaining to the Freemasons , along with the story that had already been spun , implicating Sir William Gull , Warren , Anderson , and Eddy the future King of England !

Baring in mind that the British museum ( where an American doctor was looking to purchase uterus's just before the murders) is literally a stones throw from Cleveland street , home of sickert and the gay brothels that were later to become part of another major investigation.

So is it possible that Tumblety may have had enough knowledge of the brotherhood to make it look like the Freemasons were involved ?

If we look at Martha Tabram Stabbed 39 times ( a hugely significant number in Freemasonry ) then each Murder gradually getting worse and getting closer and closer to resemble the ( four stages of cruelty paintings, by William Hogarth , which depict a Masonic Ritual killing ) until finally we have Mary Kelly in Millers court laying on a bed , which bares a striking resemblance to the fourth painting in the series ( William Hogarth the reward of cruelty ) .. Mary Kelly may well have also been the fourth in a series ! ( i am going on the assumption that Tabram was a warm up and Stride was killed by someone else )

Could this have been the whole point of the murders .. to undermine the powers that be ?

1) Make the killings resemble a Masonic Ritual killing , ( But not quite having enough knowledge in regards to which shoulder to place the intestines on )

2) The Goulston street Graffiti . Was this the main reason Warren may have felt a little uneasy and scrubbed the wall ? Baring in mind i'm talking about HIS perception .. about his own personal deduction of what may be going on around him .
a) The word Juwes . b) The letters J.M.B all lined up . c) written on the inside of the Arch [Warrens own words] d) the associated and bloodied Apron . e) Catherine Eddows being torn apart in MITRE SQUARE ..

But how would Sickert have been aware of the whole story if Tumblety did a bunk ( absconded ) straight after Kelly's murder ? Could Tumblety have already marked out Kelly as his (fourth in the series) before hand ? The story may well of have been all packed up and ready to go long before the Murder of Mary kelly ! It all points towards Sickert hearing a story (first or second hand) then adding a few embellishments and running with it years later .. There may well even be a few semi truths hidden between the lines . how did Sickert know of a John Netly, and what was his connection ? Also the alleged ( scapegoat ) Druitt's suicide ?

I know this is all far fetched and mostly conjecture , but i did think it interesting and worthy of a mention .