Coincidence?

[Simon Wood]

We should start a list of all the significant clues found by the police.

The back of an envelope will suffice. It's going to be a short list.

[etenguy]

We should start a list of all the significant clues found by the police.

The back of an envelope will suffice. It's going to be a short list.

I can't say that the GSG was a significant clue - but it might have been. Given your statement, with which I agree, it makes the decision to erase it before being photographed even less understandable to me.

[DJA]

I checked back on my sources. The London City Mission Magazine said their missionary knew "some" of the victims. I guess I make the assumption, fair or not, that one of the other ones was Catherine Eddowes since her sister lived across the street from the Thrawl St. Mission where he had services and that's where he would have met Mary and got to know her. His services were once a week so Mary and Catherine couldn't miss each other.
"All the victims of the recent crimes in the East End lived in this district, and frequented the common lodging houses which are situated within its boundaries. Some of them were well known to the Missionary, especially the last of the series,..." LCMM, Nov 1

Nichols resided at 18 Thrawl Street before moving next to Eddowes.

Eddowes went hopping.

Nichols was murdered.

Eddowes returns for her reward.

[etenguy]

Nichols resided at 18 Thrawl Street before moving next to Eddowes.

Eddowes went hopping.

Nichols was murdered.

Eddowes returns for her reward.

I apologise for being a bit slow, but I don't understand your post. Are you suggesting Eddowes was sourcing victims for the murderer?

[JeffHamm]

it seems to me that since Joe Barnett read the news about the murders to Mary, that if she at least knew any of the prior victims even in passing, she would have said something to him. It seems inconceivable that would not have come up in their conversations, and Barnett would have passed that on to the police when he mentioned how he read the news to her. The complete lack of any indication that such a conversation, or any mention of even so much as an "Oh I've heard of her ..." type comment, from Kelly, suggests there was no social connection between Mary and any of the prior victims. Also, the fact that Joe Barnett does not himself indicate any recognition or familiarity with any of the prior victims also suggests that there was no connection. None of the partners of any of the victims make any comment that could even remotely suggest acquaintanceship between victims, let alone close connections. it's possible only in the sense we can conceive of it because the evidence tells us they were living in the same area of London. But there were a lot of people living transitory lives in that area, and it is not possible to derive a connection between the victims from the evidence we have, and such a relationship predicts that certain types of evidence should be available to us in the statements we have - such as an indication of any sort of a later victim showing recognition of the previous one. And that is entirely absent other than in the links of speculation we can make. But those are just hypotheses, they are not in and of themselves data.

- Jeff

[etenguy]

it seems to me that since Joe Barnett read the news about the murders to Mary, that if she at least knew any of the prior victims even in passing, she would have said something to him. It seems inconceivable that would not have come up in their conversations, and Barnett would have passed that on to the police when he mentioned how he read the news to her. The complete lack of any indication that such a conversation, or any mention of even so much as an "Oh I've heard of her ..." type comment, from Kelly, suggests there was no social connection between Mary and any of the prior victims. Also, the fact that Joe Barnett does not himself indicate any recognition or familiarity with any of the prior victims also suggests that there was no connection. None of the partners of any of the victims make any comment that could even remotely suggest acquaintanceship between victims, let alone close connections. it's possible only in the sense we can conceive of it because the evidence tells us they were living in the same area of London. But there were a lot of people living transitory lives in that area, and it is not possible to derive a connection between the victims from the evidence we have, and such a relationship predicts that certain types of evidence should be available to us in the statements we have - such as an indication of any sort of a later victim showing recognition of the previous one. And that is entirely absent other than in the links of speculation we can make. But those are just hypotheses, they are not in and of themselves data.

- Jeff

A very good point, well put.

[DJA]

I apologise for being a bit slow, but I don't understand your post. Are you suggesting Eddowes was sourcing victims for the murderer?

Nope.

Just giving Trapper a bit extra info.

Ironically pretty much what I posted on the fairly recent "film scene" thread.

I am aware that City Mission did not usually open for Sunday breakfast until Winter,however it was a very cold and wet start to Autumn.

[DJA]

In relation to Joe Barnett,has anyone considered that he was possibly autistic?

[DJA]

"All the victims of the recent crimes in the East End lived in this district, and frequented the common lodging houses which are situated within its boundaries. Some of them were well known to the Missionary, especially the last of the series,..." LCMM, Nov 1

Given that Mary Ann Kelly was murdered Nov 9,he is referring to Eddowes.

[packers stem]

she was known to others by the name of Kelly.
.

No ,she wasn't .....
Only the press prior to the inquest .
An etiquette presumption on their part

[Sam Flynn]

I checked back on my sources. The London City Mission Magazine said their missionary knew "some" of the victims. I guess I make the assumption, fair or not, that one of the other ones was Catherine Eddowes since her sister lived across the street from the Thrawl St. Mission where he had services and that's where he would have met Mary and got to know her. His services were once a week so Mary and Catherine couldn't miss each other.
"All the victims of the recent crimes in the East End lived in this district, and frequented the common lodging houses which are situated within its boundaries. Some of them were well known to the Missionary, especially the last of the series,..." LCMM, Nov 1

Thanks for that. However, we don't know that Mary Kelly attended the services, or that she was even particularly religious - she was, after all, a rather high-spirited young girl (to put it mildly). There's no indication that Eddowes would have, either. Even if they both did, then we don't know that they ever attended at the same time, or even within the same year.

[packers stem]

it seems to me that since Joe Barnett read the news about the murders to Mary, that if she at least knew any of the prior victims even in passing, she would have said something to him. It seems inconceivable that would not have come up in their conversations, and Barnett would have passed that on to the police when he mentioned how he read the news to her. The complete lack of any indication that such a conversation, or any mention of even so much as an "Oh I've heard of her ..." type comment, from Kelly, suggests there was no social connection between Mary and any of the prior victims. Also, the fact that Joe Barnett does not himself indicate any recognition or familiarity with any of the prior victims also suggests that there was no connection. None of the partners of any of the victims make any comment that could even remotely suggest acquaintanceship between victims, let alone close connections. it's possible only in the sense we can conceive of it because the evidence tells us they were living in the same area of London. But there were a lot of people living transitory lives in that area, and it is not possible to derive a connection between the victims from the evidence we have, and such a relationship predicts that certain types of evidence should be available to us in the statements we have - such as an indication of any sort of a later victim showing recognition of the previous one. And that is entirely absent other than in the links of speculation we can make. But those are just hypotheses, they are not in and of themselves data.

- Jeff

We should beware of taking anything from Barnett as 'fact'

[packers stem]

Not only was there so few Mary (or Jane for that matter) Kelly's around........ seems Emily Birrell was an unknown too ....
Was anything John Kelly said true I wonder.

Morning advertiser 3rd

Two City police-constables yesterday morning supplied what is at present the clearest clue to the identity of one of the women murdered. Having seen at the mortuary in Golden-lane the mutilated body of the woman murdered in Mitre-square, they expressed to their superior officers the opinion that it was that of a woman who had been taken to the station by them a short time ago for drunkenness. Owing to the dreadfully disfigured condition of the face they could not, however, be absolutely certain. The woman to whom the constables refer was not charged with any offence, but when detained at the station she gave the name of Kelly, and said she was living at 6, Fashion-street. It will be remembered that one of the two pawntickets picked up near the scene of the murder stated that Jane Kelly, of 6, Dorset-street, had pawned a pair of boots on the 28th ult. with Mr. Joseph Jones, of Church-street, Spitalfields, for half a crown. The other pawnticket was dated the 31st of August last, and showed that with the same pawnbroker a flannel shirt had been pawned in the name of Emily Burrell, 32, White's-row. It was at once remarked that it was strange the name Kelly should become associated with the murdered woman through such different channels, and the detectives continued their inquiries with the object of ascertaining if anything was known of a woman named Kelly at any of the addresses given. No one in Fashion-street knew anything of such a person, whilst the people living at the addresses in White's-row and Dorset-street were also ignorant of any such names.

[packers stem]

I checked back on my sources. The London City Mission Magazine said their missionary knew "some" of the victims. I guess I make the assumption, fair or not, that one of the other ones was Catherine Eddowes since her sister lived across the street from the Thrawl St. Mission where he had services and that's where he would have met Mary and got to know her. His services were once a week so Mary and Catherine couldn't miss each other.
"All the victims of the recent crimes in the East End lived in this district, and frequented the common lodging houses which are situated within its boundaries. Some of them were well known to the Missionary, especially the last of the series,..." LCMM, Nov 1

Daily News Nov 12th

. "There is no doubt," said a City missionary, "that the impression has been very profound among these unhappy women. We have had special meetings for them, and at the very outset of our efforts we got thirty four of them away to homes, and we have had a good many others since. I knew the poor girl who has just been killed, and to look at, at all events, she was one of the smartest, nicest looking women in the neighbourhood. We have had her at some of our meetings, and a companion of hers was one we rescued. I know that she has been in correspondence with her mother. It is not true, as it has been stated, that she is a Welshwoman. She is of Irish parentage, and her mother, I believe, lives in Limerick. I used to hear a good deal about the letters from her mother there. You would not have supposed if you had met her in the street that she belonged to the miserable class she did, as she was always neatly and decently dressed and looked quite nice and respectable." "You have been at this work a good many years?" "Seven years in this neighbourhood." "And do you find the state of things improving in any degree?" "Well, I think there is a little improvement - some little improvement. I have been out and about the streets at all hours, and have sometimes found a shocking state of things. I remember a year or two back going out one night and finding eleven women who had crept for shelter into the staircase of one house. They were quite destitute, and were sleeping here. The opening of the refuges of one sort and another has done something to reduce the numbers found in this way, but there is still a deplorable state of things."

[Trapperologist]

Exactly, Packer. The City Missionary said Mary came to their meetings and he "rescued" one of her friends. A Salvation Army Captain also said Mary came to a service. Mary made herself known and was very memorable. I still remember the standout from when I did some volunteer missionary work among the homeless. As for Catherine: if Mary didn't know her real last name, would she have even recognized "Kate" or "Catherine" or "Mary Ann" from the newspaper descriptions even if she knew her?