Mary Jane Violence

[Fisherman]

Well, lets make that even worse then...I believe within the Canonical Group alone there are most likely 3 killers, and that 1 man made the Torsos...so that's 4 killers. The presumption I speak of Fisherman is that people killed differently, some dramatically so..(Liz Stride/Mary Kelly for example)... in a period of over a year are most probably the result of 1 killer. You say I presume too much when I suggest they were done by more than one man, when, obviously, that's the more probable truth.

The evidence... such as it is... in no way, shape, or form creates a "clear and unequivocal" single killer premise, it more factually, supports the opposite conclusion.

In your world, perhaps. But that is a world in which the fewest cohabitate with you. That is not to say that you must be wrong, although I certainly believe you are. There can be no rational reason to discard the evidence pointing to a shared identity, only cramped efforts to explain them away. Which is what I am seeing here.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Hi Sam,
"The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room. I went to bed at half-past one and barricaded the door with two tables. I fell asleep directly and slept soundly."
Elizabeth Prayers inquest testimony.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Prater. Damn you autocorrect!

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam,
"The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room. I went to bed at half-past one and barricaded the door with two tables. I fell asleep directly and slept soundly."
Elizabeth Prayers inquest testimony.

Thanks, Al - that's from the Daily Telegraph transcript I referred to earlier. It's clear from that article that this part of Prater's testimony relates to when she was at or on the stairs, which were next to the partition. This is evident from her also mentioning being able to see light escaping from the partition at precisely the same point in her testimony.

Her official inquest statement also preserves the same sequence of events as recounted in the Telegraph transcript: "On the stairs I could [have seen] a glimmer through the partition if there had been a light in the deceased's room. I did not take particular notice - I could have heard her moving if she had moved. I went in about 1:30 [and] put two tables against the door. I went to sleep at once."

[Lipsky]

In your world, perhaps. But that is a world in which the fewest cohabitate with you. That is not to say that you must be wrong, although I certainly believe you are. There can be no rational reason to discard the evidence pointing to a shared identity, only cramped efforts to explain them away. Which is what I am seeing here.

Fisher, is your attempt to sound like Rust Cohle deliberate?

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,
"The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room. I went to bed at half-past one and barricaded the door with two tables. I fell asleep directly and slept soundly."
Elizabeth Prayers inquest testimony.

Interesting quote. You would think that had they spoken about the Ripper and Mary vocalized her fears and if Prater responded well I always barricade my door that Mary would have done the same.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Fisher, is your attempt to sound like Rust Cohle deliberate?

From what I gather, Rust Cohle is a fictional character, but since I have not had the joy/poor luck to watch any of the material involving him, I must leave your question unanswered. I am sorry if that nags you in any way, but you are of course always welcome to ask your question in another manner so that I can answer it. He who dares, wins.

[Fisherman]

I hope you don´t mind me answering you, Gareth. I noticed that on the other site, you lament how I make too many posts.

I just checked this matter more carefully. What Gareth said on the other site was that I make more posts in an hour than he does in a week. It turns out that he makes two posts when I make three, so I can only conclude that Gareths weeks are one and a half hour long. Small wonder then that he does not find the time for a reality check every now and then.

Now, back to the REAL discussion.

[Lipsky]

From what I gather, Rust Cohle is a fictional character, but since I have not had the joy/poor luck to watch any of the material involving him, I must leave your question unanswered. I am sorry if that nags you in any way, but you are of course always welcome to ask your question in another manner so that I can answer it. He who dares, wins.

It doesn't nag me. Take the time to watch some of "the material involving him" -- then maybe you'll find my comment was maybe less negative than what you perceived.

"He who dares, wins" -- true for the Ripper as well, right? His audacity served him well.

[Michael W Richards]

She also qualified her statement by saying that she often heard such cries "from the back of the lodging-house, where the windows look into Miller's Court". Well, Kelly's room's windows looked into the Court, and Kelly's room was at the back of the house, so it would have been quite natural for someone living at the front of the house to perceive that the sound emerged from somewhere in the direction of the Court, and to describe it in similar terms.

If Prater's room actually overlooked the Court (i.e. it was above Kelly's), then she'd have said "I often hear such cries in the Court, outside my window"; in other words, Prater would not have referred to the back of the lodging house if she also lived at the back of the lodging-house.

But she didn't, of course. She lived at the first floor front room (Daily Telegraph 10th Nov), above the shed (Daily Telegraph, 13th Nov), from which vantage-point a mere tap on Kelly's window or door was extremely unlikely, if not impossible, for Prater or her cat to hear... especially from behind a shut (and barricaded) door.

Can you point me to those sources? I don't doubt what you say, it's just that I can't find them using the Casebook press reports search function.

I've no problem with that but, whatever disturbed Diddles, it wasn't a mere knock on Kelly's door or a tap at her window.

I still looking for that specific reference Sam, in the meantime I found this in the Nov 12th Times "Shortly afterwards, when inside her father's house she heard a cry of "Murder" in a woman's voice, and she alleges the sound came from the direction of Kelly's room." Sarah Kennedy/Lewis establishes a likely source for the cry, and we know Elizabeth hears that same call out at approximately the same time, without colluding. That seems to indicate that Elizabeth could hear things from, at the very least, the immediate area of Mary Kellys room. We know that there was an upper window above the 2 that Marys room had, I contend that may have been a hallway window with minor floor plan issues, and that its also possible the window over the archway accessed a niche like corner in Elizabeths room. Im not sure what the reason would be for a window there if its just an archway.

As to sounds from inside the house, considering what we know of Victorian creaky old furniture, boots on hardwood, what dragging a bed across the floor might have sounded like from rooms up above, whether she was oriented towards the front of the Dorset facing house or not, she probably heard lots that was going on inside the house. Ill find that specific..."I could hear when Mary moved things about..."

[Sam Flynn]

I still looking for that specific reference Sam, in the meantime I found this in the Nov 12th Times "Shortly afterwards, when inside her father's house she heard a cry of "Murder" in a woman's voice, and she alleges the sound came from the direction of Kelly's room." ... That seems to indicate that Elizabeth could hear things from, at the very least, the immediate area of Mary Kellys room. We know that there was an upper window above the 2 that Marys room had, I contend that may have been a hallway window

I don't doubt that a scream/shout could have got through the partition and up the stairs, to be heard in Prater's room at the upstairs front. No need to posit a hallway window, either; apart from her bedroom door, which I doubt was soundproof, there was nothing but air between Prater and the thin, porous partition against which Kelly's bed abutted. Perhaps it was the sounds of a brief struggle on that bed, and/or briefly raised voices prior to Kelly's scream, which alerted Prater's cat. But a tap on the door or window? Not very likely.

[Michael W Richards]

In your world, perhaps. But that is a world in which the fewest cohabitate with you. That is not to say that you must be wrong, although I certainly believe you are. There can be no rational reason to discard the evidence pointing to a shared identity, only cramped efforts to explain them away. Which is what I am seeing here.

You know it wouldn't faze me to know I was the only one who sees things this way Fisherman, so you best look for another Achilles heel. I have however had many discussions off line and on about what some posters believe privately, and my abbreviated Canonical ideas have some traction out there. Im not threatening to people who still want the solo phantom menace, 'cause I do see one in there as well, I just find it fascinating how this became what it is today and why people would rather imagine a continually morphing man when its abundantly clear that.. excluding a possible sighting outside Mitre Square.. this guy was succeeding spectacularly doing just what he did. And in that Canonical series I see deep throat cuts, agreed, but I do not see any disarticulation desires other than..perhaps...Mary Kelly. As a matter of fact, in one, there aren't even mutilation desires. I hedged in Marys case because I believe he had ample alone time to take off her arms, or legs, or head while in that room. If he can strip her thigh clean with a knife, cutting off the tissues that cling to the bone.. and all that muscle, tendon and fat..he could have easily cut through a thigh bone in the same time, or removed it at the hip joint, or cut off her head. He didn't.

I think that people are correct when they see someone plunging into the abyss in that room, whomever did this was never the same after it, but I don't believe that it has to be interpreted as a result of prior murders culminating in a masterpiece of gore...I think someone was very angry, then curious. I think there may well have been an attempt to make this look Ripperish after the murder itself, and this guy didn't understand these acts true significance to the real Ripper. Breast under the head, uterus between the legs...Annies killer had no time or interest for such rubbish. The intestines were in the way, thats all.

[Sam Flynn]

I hedged in Marys case because I believe he had ample alone time to take off her arms, or legs, or head while in that room. If he can strip her thigh clean with a knife, cutting off the tissues that cling to the bone.. and all that muscle, tendon and fat..he could have easily cut through a thigh bone in the same time, or removed it at the hip joint, or cut off her head. He didn't.

You're right on the money there.

[Fisherman]

It doesn't nag me. Take the time to watch some of "the material involving him" -- then maybe you'll find my comment was maybe less negative than what you perceived.

"He who dares, wins" -- true for the Ripper as well, right? His audacity served him well.

I did not perceive your comment as either negative OR positive - how could I? I never heard about Rust Cohle.

But I agree that the Rippers audacity served him well.

[Harry D]

Working indoors was certainly an incentive to butcher Mary Kelly more extensively than any of the Whitechapel victims but it was not the motivation imo.