It's 3rd September 1888 what should the Police have been doing?

[Harry D]

A total hypothetical here but what should the police back in 1888 have been doing just after the murder of Polly Nichols, with the resources/technology (but without our hindsight of where the next murder would be to take place) they had? Could they have caught the culprit? What errors did they make or what were the biggest opportunities they over looked?

They should've been tailing Lechmere, just to shut up Fisherman

[Michael W Richards]

Eh? You've done the same when you dismiss Alice McKenzie based on the time lapse.

For my money Alice sits better with the "Ripper type" list than does many of the other Unsolved Murders, however, for me, that would be someone who could have killed Kate only, and not Annie or Polly. The best suspect I can see at this point for Polly and Annie was in an institution before the Double event night.

[Harry D]

For my money Alice sits better with the "Ripper type" list than does many of the other Unsolved Murders, however, for me, that would be someone who could have killed Kate only, and not Annie or Polly. The best suspect I can see at this point for Polly and Annie was in an institution before the Double event night.

I think this killer's handiwork could date back to 1873 with the Battersea Mystery and the subsequent torso murders. It was believed that the torsos were the work of one man, and to me it's a stretch that both sets of murders overlapped in 1888 and 1889, particularly as there are parallels between them and both appear to end around the same time. Some of the early 1888 attacks (Millwood, Wilson) may have been the killer's first attempts at killing outdoors, whereas previously he lured prostitutes back to his chop shop. After Tabram, Nichols, his confidence grew until he was dispatching and mutilating women outside.

[Abby Normal]

I think this killer's handiwork could date back to 1873 with the Battersea Mystery and the subsequent torso murders. It was believed that the torsos were the work of one man, and to me it's a stretch that both sets of murders overlapped in 1888 and 1889, particularly as there are parallels between them and both appear to end around the same time. Some of the early 1888 attacks (Millwood, Wilson) may have been the killer's first attempts at killing outdoors, whereas previously he lured prostitutes back to his chop shop. After Tabram, Nichols, his confidence grew until he was dispatching and mutilating women outside.

yes yes and yes!! my thoughts exactly harry

[Abby Normal]

Great Post Abby. I'm not sure this would have worked at this stage but continuing in this manner would have been useful and would have probably solved the question of who was Jack.

thank you john

[Michael W Richards]

I think this killer's handiwork could date back to 1873 with the Battersea Mystery and the subsequent torso murders. It was believed that the torsos were the work of one man, and to me it's a stretch that both sets of murders overlapped in 1888 and 1889, particularly as there are parallels between them and both appear to end around the same time. Some of the early 1888 attacks (Millwood, Wilson) may have been the killer's first attempts at killing outdoors, whereas previously he lured prostitutes back to his chop shop. After Tabram, Nichols, his confidence grew until he was dispatching and mutilating women outside.

Well, we are divergent on those points Harry,...for one, I see no reason to associate Torsos with Jack the Ripper, I think the man that killed Polly started his "spree" with her, and the only "chop shop" that was used was by someone who made Torsos before and after that Fall.

[John Wheat]

Eh? You've done the same when you dismiss Alice McKenzie based on the time lapse.

I've done no such thing. The time lapse is a massive indicator that in all probability McKenzie was not a Ripper murder.

[John Wheat]

I am saying in the quote that you used that Liz Stride doesn't belong on a Rippers List, and therefore the Canonical Group should be smaller. Show me one bit of evidence that links the killing of Liz Stride with either Annie or Kate, and geography and timing are not links. Stride is included because the second murder that night resembled Annies killing and people therefore assume the same man did both...they are the same people that suggest an interruption to explain away the obvious problems, something that is not indicated in any evidence anywhere.

It's not that clear whether you are indicating that Stride or Kelly should not be included in the Canonical Group. Besides Stride may have been a Ripper victim. We simply don't know. It's just your opinion that Stride wasn't a Ripper victim.

[jerryd]

Well, we are divergent on those points Harry,...for one, I see no reason to associate Torsos with Jack the Ripper, I think the man that killed Polly started his "spree" with her, and the only "chop shop" that was used was by someone who made Torsos before and after that Fall.

Hi Mike,

Depending on what one believes the date of death was [late August or early September], the Whitehall torso was right there that fall. I go with Dr. Neville on this one and speculate around September 8th/9th. The actual discovery of the torso was Tuesday following the weekend of the Stride and Eddowes murders. It was really on Monday, Oct 1st when Frederick Wildbore first claims he saw it in the vault.

Gives new meaning to the "double event".

[Michael W Richards]

It's not that clear whether you are indicating that Stride or Kelly should not be included in the Canonical Group. Besides Stride may have been a Ripper victim. We simply don't know. It's just your opinion that Stride wasn't a Ripper victim.

Actually John its a matter of available evidence, and there is none that connects Liz Stride with either Annie Chapmans murder... or Kate Eddowes. Aside from being killed on the same night in the latter case. Liz Stride happens to die on a night when another killing, one actually resembling a Jack MO killing, takes place. That's it. Hardly linkage enough to assume any connections there. Kelly was almost certainly killed by someone she knew well, and that alone is a great deviation from what we know of the Ripper killers patterns.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike,

Depending on what one believes the date of death was [late August or early September], the Whitehall torso was right there that fall. I go with Dr. Neville on this one and speculate around September 8th/9th. The actual discovery of the torso was Tuesday following the weekend of the Stride and Eddowes murders. It was really on Monday, Oct 1st when Frederick Wildbore first claims he saw it in the vault.

Gives new meaning to the "double event".

I get your point jerry, I have no issues with Jack and Torso man co-existing.

Cheers bud.

[John Wheat]

Actually John its a matter of available evidence, and there is none that connects Liz Stride with either Annie Chapmans murder... or Kate Eddowes. Aside from being killed on the same night in the latter case. Liz Stride happens to die on a night when another killing, one actually resembling a Jack MO killing, takes place. That's it. Hardly linkage enough to assume any connections there. Kelly was almost certainly killed by someone she knew well, and that alone is a great deviation from what we know of the Ripper killers patterns.

Again this is just your opinion Michael. As regards Stride I believe its 50/50 whether she was killed by the Ripper. As for Kelly your right she was in all likelihood killed by someone she knew however this does not rule out the Ripper and in my opinion was almost certainly killed by the Ripper.

Cheers John

[Michael W Richards]

Again this is just your opinion Michael. As regards Stride I believe its 50/50 whether she was killed by the Ripper. As for Kelly your right she was in all likelihood killed by someone she knew however this does not rule out the Ripper and in my opinion was almost certainly killed by the Ripper.

Cheers John

Well John, I guess you don't believe killers who have demonstrated an MO, like the killer of Polly and Annie most certainly did, continue with it for subsequent events. To recap-Polly and Annies killer posed as a client while the were soliciting, he attacked them, cut their throats so deeply that both major neck arteries were severed and their spines were nicked, lifted up their skirts and then proceeded to mutilate the abdomens of the victims. He did this in a short time span. At least in the case of Chapman, the physician who examined her felt that all the actions he took were required to obtain what he took..."there were no meaningless cuts". Liz Stride has not been proven to have been soliciting, her basic circumstances are therefore different from the priors, and her throat is cut once, severing 1 artery. She was left untouched after that.

Her attire, the accoutrements she had with her, and the fact she is just killed...not "ripped" in any way suggest 2 things...she wasn't there to solicit, and she wasnt killed by a Ripper.

[John Wheat]

Well John, I guess you don't believe killers who have demonstrated an MO, like the killer of Polly and Annie most certainly did, continue with it for subsequent events. To recap-Polly and Annies killer posed as a client while the were soliciting, he attacked them, cut their throats so deeply that both major neck arteries were severed and their spines were nicked, lifted up their skirts and then proceeded to mutilate the abdomens of the victims. He did this in a short time span. At least in the case of Chapman, the physician who examined her felt that all the actions he took were required to obtain what he took..."there were no meaningless cuts". Liz Stride has not been proven to have been soliciting, her basic circumstances are therefore different from the priors, and her throat is cut once, severing 1 artery. She was left untouched after that.

Her attire, the accoutrements she had with her, and the fact she is just killed...not "ripped" in any way suggest 2 things...she wasn't there to solicit, and she wasnt killed by a Ripper.

No Michael I'm unsure whether Liz Stride was a Ripper victim for the reasons you are stating. However her being killed just before a Ripper victim is a massive coincednce which begs the question was she a Ripper victim or not?

[Michael W Richards]

The fact she is killed by throat slit makes her one of 3 women that night, so "double event" aside, its clear more than just Jack cut womens throats that Fall. Knowing that its awfully hard to reconcile a serial mutilator with what was done to Liz Stride. When assessing Liz its important to remember more than Jack carried knives, more than Jack used them, but when he used them so he could mutilate their abdomen,.... Then that was Jack.