Motives for Druitt and Kosminski?

[Michael W Richards]

I believe Phil's questions are impossible to answer in a pro-killer argument because hearsay and alleged mental illnesses are not anywhere near enough to accuse anyone of any violent crime.

In a ghetto, which Whitechapel was, you will find any number of mentally ill people, abandoned by their own family or institutions, and we know of quite a few people in that area at that time who had psychological problems.

Few if any of them would have the wherewithal to cut flaps off a midsection in order to gain unfettered access to internal organs, and even fewer would be able to extract any organ with what some medical experts suggested was considerable skill.

Someone told someone about something they suspected about Druitt and that makes him a likely suspect? One of the 3 main suspects? Oh yes...and one other of those 3 "main" suspects was in jail in Europe while the killings took place.

What someone said means very little without corroborating and supporting evidence to substantiate it.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Jonathan H]

To Stephen Thomas

In the one document under his own name for public consumption, his legacy, Sir Melville committed himself to Druitt's culpability ('certain facts ... a conclusion') without any qualifications, except that it was a case in which no arrest, charges, or conviction could happen because, in a sense, the Ripper had taken care of that himself.

No other suspects matter -- by implication Tumblety, 'Kosminski', Chapman, and Ostrog are utterly worthless -- and the killer did not kill himself immediately after his 'awful glut' (and in 1910, through his proxy Sims, he dismissed Anderson's claims as 'fairy tales').

On the other hand, the argument that a source which engages in deceit, which Mac does over and over for intersecting reasons of compassion, propriety, institutional self-interest and political pressure, is therefore hopelessly unreliable -- is fair enough.

I perfectly respect the people who reject Macnaghten as a source, that all bets are off when you grasp that he misled his own superiors about Druitt being a suspect whilst alive -- though in a document never sent -- that he misled Griffiths and Sims into believing that 'Aberconway' was a definitive document of state, that he misled Anderson into believing that 'Kosminski' was sectioned in early 1889 (and was deceased?), and so on.

The counter is that the old notion that Druitt is being mixed up, by forgetful Mac, with somebody else -- we see another desperate, veteran poster trying this on right now -- was ended by the 2008 identification of a source who knew both Druitt and Macnaghten. The now two 'West of England' MP articles confirm what Macnaghten had secretly put on file in 1894: 'belief' in Druitt's guilt, rightly or wrongly, really did originate with his own family.

To Miss Marple

Druitt's words make more sense as a plea to his brother that he feared being sectioned like his mother because he was 'Jack' (or delusionally thought he was) and we can see this echoed in other primary sources. For example Sims, Mac's mouthpiece in 1902, 1903, 1907, and 1917, has the 'mad doctor' having already been in an asylum ('twice'), and asserts that if he had not killed himself ('a shreiking, raving fiend') that is where he would have been hastily and permanently returned to by his 'friends'.

I agree that 'epileptic mania' is dodgy and redundant.

But you miss the subtlety and modernity of Sir Melville describing [the un-named] Montague Druitt as 'remarkable' and 'fascinating' and 'Protean'; eg. that he was a barrister, a teacher, a cricketer and a serial killer -- a gentleman with many faces and a high-functioning maniac. Just like the horrendous serial killers who have committed evil and destruction in modern times but have seemed to be, in their daily lives, perfectly normal and thus impossible to be such a bestial criminal.

A face which we can see, at least in his high school pictures, which does not match the stereotypical Victorian notions of reading criminal behaviour via grotesque or distorted features. Mac told Tatcho Sims that he did resemble the killer, when the latter was younger and thinner, and this is true (minus the naval beard) even down to the centre-parting of the hair.

In his mostly ignored memoirs, Mac writes that you can bump into Jack the Rippers in the streets of London and never be the wiser. Druitt made him realise how much a psycho could seem to be, on the surface, an admirable chappie and yet be a sadistic monster when 'absented' from his 'people'.

[Bridewell]

Indeed

Correction, Jonathan.

What Macnaghten said and what he 'believed' need not be the same thing.

Hi Stephen,

Good point - especially if Sir Melville was as machiavellian as is claimed.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Stephen Thomas]

Yes, that is good point but it is one that Sir Melville Macnaghten, a police chief of the time would also have known, and did know.

Yet he believed in Montague Druitt's probable culpability for the Whitechapel murders (for five of them) to the total exclusiuon of all other suspects from about 1891 to his death in 1921. He propagated a veiled version of this story (and debunked the alternate Polish Jew suspect) for the public from 1898.

Correction, Jonathan.

What Macnaghten said and what he 'believed' need not be the same thing.

[Wickerman]

I just want to say that being a nurse, I have met many schizophrenics, and mentally ill people as patients of mine. ....

Thankyou Beowulf for putting schizophrenia in an everyday context that we can all understand.

It doesn't help me get over the idea that a 23 yr old could look "middle-aged", that being my biggest hurdle with respect to Kosminski being the killer.
But thats my problem :-)

Very informative post!

Best wishes, Jon S.

[The Good Michael]

Beowulf,

The images you present re: your experiences, are similar to what many of us have been suggesting for years with regards to Kosminski, but had no personal experiences; just ideas, some book knowledge, and common sense. Thanks for listing your personal anecdotes.

Mike

[Scott Nelson]

It seems to be the same posthumous diagnosis as the 1899 North Country's Vicar's Ripper. The latter allegedly led a blameless life but tragically suffered from 'epileptic mania'.

Well, Newland Smith died from it in....1898!

Smith was transferred to Holloway Asylum to the Cane Hill Asylum (a private one) in 1894, two weeks before Macnaghten wrote his Memorandum.

[Abby Normal]

Excellent post.

I agree-great post Beowulf-that really means something coming from someone with first hand experience. i used to think that there was no way that kos could have been the ripper because he was bat **** crazy and at the height of the scare there would be no way a prostitute would go with him to a dark alley. but after reading the various posts from you and other knowledgeable people on the matter, i now think it is possible (though slight) that he could have been lucid (and normal appearing enough) to pull it off.

Also, another point against Kos people make is that his records show he was not violent enough to have been JtR. Most proven serial killers (mentally ill or not) once encarcerated do not exhibit violent behaviour-quite the contrary-they typically are "role model" inmates.

However, there is a telling incident of violence in his past while not being "sectioned". Threatening his sister with the knife incident is very telling to me in that he used a KNIFE as the weapon and it was a WOMAN he threatened. IF I was a Kos supporter I would be all over this. I think most likelely this is the incident that got him alerted to the police and doctors. He was a heavy burden to his family before this incident but now clearly he is a threat. He had to go-either through legal or medical means. They may have even told the police and or doctors they beleived him to be the killer.

[robhouse]

I just want to say that being a nurse, I have met many schizophrenics, and mentally ill people as patients of mine. They come in for medical reasons, same as others, appendicitis, pneumonia, sepsis. Many of them cease to take their medications for their psyche issues, and I see on occasion ones who will not eat their food, due to the delusion they are being poisoned. They believe the doctor trying to do so as well, and stop taking the medications, at which point they go into some decline of their illness.

But even so, they are able to pay their bills, live at home, speak with friends normally, depending on the extremity of their illness. They do not let others know if they are thinking strange thoughts, and are aware they are 'different' thoughts. They can be very crafty and cunning about all this.

Seeing them refusing to eat hospital food is one way that alerts ones in the medical world to the extent of decline they are experiencing.

As I said once before, I observed a woman, who was very pleasant to me, in her room with the door shut (I had opened it to enter, she was unaware) passing a medallion on a chain over her food and engaged in some sort of ritual to make it safe to eat from her standpoint. Never would she do this in front of anyone. Still, she didn't eat enough to stay alive. She clearly believed we were trying to poison her. She refused all medications from us.

When asked if they are hearing voices (my job requires me to do this at times) they sometimes deny it, but actually admit to it sometimes. Many have told me of the 'voices', some claim multiple voices, telling them to do things and how they do or do not listen to them. I have been surprised to find this out more than once as they seem so 'normal' otherwise.

One man told me the devil spoke to him, (this patient was in a psyche ward), he was admitted for debilitation of his illness. He had been found wandering the streets acting strangely, but still, was able to talk with me normally, and I'm sure would have no problem obtaining services with a prostitute. In fact, he lived in a part of town where there were street girls and I would not be surprised if he didn't make use of their services. He would not come out of his room, he kept to himself.

Once he spoke to me through a completely closed mouth, as if someone had an invisible hand over his mouth and he were trying very hard to speak to me. This man could easily become violent, yet he played along with us knowing that behavior discourage any discharge from the hospital. He could be very pleasant, ask to shower, read a magazine, watch tv. You would not guess his illness at these times. Only on occasion would it show. If he were attempting to do something normal odd behavior would subside.

I'm not saying I feel Kosminski was JTR, but wouldn't rule him out based on inaccurate ideas regarding mental illness. I would like to see more about him, but it is not available.

Excellent post.

[miss marple]

The problem is there is no evidence that Druitt suffered from ' Furious Madness'whatever that is. He was functioning normally, even taking part in a court case before he died. As for the' diseased body' well Druitt was quite an athlete, as we know. Macnaughton's finest drivel.
The evidence of Druitt's letter shows he was suffering from a depression and anxiety that he would develop madness like his mother. That is all. There is no indication that Druitt was schizophrenic, he may have feared he was developing symptoms and was terrified of ending up in a mad house and losing his reason and saw death as preferable.

Macnaughton sprouts a lot of balderdash about madness, he was not a doctor and before Freud, the Victorian understanding of madness was limited. The Victorian perception of madness overshadows the case. When the Victorians took an intellectual interest in the brain, it let to beliefs such as Phrenology,where the brain was divided into 27 distinct localised organs responsible for different functions. the sentiments, intellectual,individuality
locality, Comparison and Causality plus language etc.
By looking at a head and measuring each'organ' you could determine a person's character and potential. So if a man was deemed to have an enlarged criminal or organ that indicates mad, that's him done for then.
The melodramatic madman loved by the Victorians has become part of Jack legend.

Miss Marple

[Jonathan H]

Epileptic Mania?

To Phil Carter

Sir Melville did not ascribe any kind of exotic political motivation to Druitt, whatsoever, just a specific form of high functioniong insanity.

It seems to be the same posthumous diagnosis as the 1899 North Country's Vicar's Ripper. The latter allegedly led a blameless life but tragically suffered from 'epileptic mania'. According to this [redunddant] condition a person could commit homicide, suicide, appalling acts of ultra-violence against loved ones and/or strangers, be full of fury, shrieking and raving in fits, and then become calm again -- and sometimes apparently not recall the episodes of furious mania.

From p. 114 of 'Days of My Years':

' ... Apart from the fact that no man in the last stage of furious madness, as the perpetrator of the Dorset Street horror must have been, could have lived to embark on a totally different series of atrocities ...'

Earlier, in Chapter IV on the Ripper case, Macnaghten had written that the un-named Druitt also probably had a 'diseased body', another so-called symptom of this illness.

[Beowulf]

Yes, Thank you, Beowulf,
I too had dismissed Kosminski as being 'too mad' -but after working many years with the General Public (unbelievable how many loonies* about....um) and having seen an acquaintance diagnosed as schizophrenic, your description rings true..

* Sorry for the term - my political correctness deserts me when I'm tired.

Bridewell and Rubyretro, it makes me feel very good to know I have brought something to the table that is worthwhile, thank you for that input

I would love to have been Jack's nurse and hear whatever he might have to say about his 'voices', those commands. A conversation the worlds ear would have listened intently to, to understand exactly what were his delusions. For that reason I regret he never was caught. Stopping the killings of course would be the primary reason.

[Rubyretro]

Yes, Thank you, Beowulf,
I too had dismissed Kosminski as being 'too mad' -but after working many years with the General Public (unbelievable how many loonies* about....um) and having seen an acquaintance diagnosed as schizophrenic, your description rings true..

* Sorry for the term - my political correctness deserts me when I'm tired.

[Bridewell]

Thanks, Beowulf,

That was a very enlightening post. I know a great deal more than I did 5 minutes ago. Thanks.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Beowulf]

Kosminski would have been a weird guy to meet. Once the fear of the Ripper had settled over the East End, I doubt many prostitutes would have gone down dark alleys with him.

I just want to say that being a nurse, I have met many schizophrenics, and mentally ill people as patients of mine. They come in for medical reasons, same as others, appendicitis, pneumonia, sepsis. Many of them cease to take their medications for their psyche issues, and I see on occasion ones who will not eat their food, due to the delusion they are being poisoned. They believe the doctor trying to do so as well, and stop taking the medications, at which point they go into some decline of their illness.

But even so, they are able to pay their bills, live at home, speak with friends normally, depending on the extremity of their illness. They do not let others know if they are thinking strange thoughts, and are aware they are 'different' thoughts. They can be very crafty and cunning about all this.

Seeing them refusing to eat hospital food is one way that alerts ones in the medical world to the extent of decline they are experiencing.

As I said once before, I observed a woman, who was very pleasant to me, in her room with the door shut (I had opened it to enter, she was unaware) passing a medallion on a chain over her food and engaged in some sort of ritual to make it safe to eat from her standpoint. Never would she do this in front of anyone. Still, she didn't eat enough to stay alive. She clearly believed we were trying to poison her. She refused all medications from us.

When asked if they are hearing voices (my job requires me to do this at times) they sometimes deny it, but actually admit to it sometimes. Many have told me of the 'voices', some claim multiple voices, telling them to do things and how they do or do not listen to them. I have been surprised to find this out more than once as they seem so 'normal' otherwise.

One man told me the devil spoke to him, (this patient was in a psyche ward), he was admitted for debilitation of his illness. He had been found wandering the streets acting strangely, but still, was able to talk with me normally, and I'm sure would have no problem obtaining services with a prostitute. In fact, he lived in a part of town where there were street girls and I would not be surprised if he didn't make use of their services. He would not come out of his room, he kept to himself.

Once he spoke to me through a completely closed mouth, as if someone had an invisible hand over his mouth and he were trying very hard to speak to me. This man could easily become violent, yet he played along with us knowing that behavior discourage any discharge from the hospital. He could be very pleasant, ask to shower, read a magazine, watch tv. You would not guess his illness at these times. Only on occasion would it show. If he were attempting to do something normal odd behavior would subside.

I'm not saying I feel Kosminski was JTR, but wouldn't rule him out based on inaccurate ideas regarding mental illness. I would like to see more about him, but it is not available.