Motives for Druitt and Kosminski?

[martin wilson]

Hi Jonathon,
Thanks for your reply, all wrong and off track I'm accepting as fair comment, in fact I might change my screen name to it,considering some of the places I ended up in researching religious mania as a motive for AK.
I think,and I dont mean this in a nasty way,that you are challenged to provide an explanation as to why Littlechild,who I agree seems a credible source, passed on to Sims the 'belief' that Tumblety had committed suicide.
If it was to strengthen his argument for Tumblety as a suspect,and thus the reason the murders stopped,he already had a reason with Tumblety skipping bail,so why mention it unless he thought it had at least some credibility and not just gossip he heard on the grapevine?
I accept he would not have seen the memorandum in 1894,therefore if he heard Druitt at all after that,the part about him being a doctor may not have been mentioned,and if he heard about a doctor committing suicide the name Druitt may not have been mentioned,otherwise he would surely have understood Sims' reference?
All the best.

[Jonathan H]

To Martin Wilson

I think that's just all wrong and off-track.

Arguably Sir Melville Macnaghten in his 1914 memoirs -- the only document by him on the Ripper for public consumption published under his own knighted name -- makes no mistakes about Druitt, and nor does Jack Littlechild about Dr. Tumblety in his 1913 private letter to Sims (but a famous writer who might use it as a scoop).

Yes, Littlechild writes that it was 'believed' (by somebody un-named) that Tumblety committed suicide after he jumped bail, but he does not say he definitely did take his own life -- and he didn't.

[martin wilson]

Hello all
Thank you for your very full reply Phil,very kind of you.
It's all garbled identities with many errors both from Macnaghten and Littlechild,one an assistant commissioner and the other a former head of Special Irish Branch.
Going on nothing more than gut instinct,this does not seem credible to me, but I'm a newcomer to Druitt, perhaps it is just Chinese whispers but this mangling of facts by two high ranking police officials rates a definite 5/5 on the 'Hmmmm' scale.
All the best.

[Jonathan H]

No, Phil, it's not strange at all ...

To Phil Carter

I counter-argue that Mac's comments of 1913 and his memoirs of 1914 do perfectly match all the other sources you refer to, including Reid and Littlechild.

Druitt's dual identity as a respectable barrister and a 'furious' killer, yet 'Protean' and high functioning -- at least for a time -- was a 'secret'.

A secret which Macnaghten posthumously discovered when he met with Farquharson and then, likely, William Druitt (the veiled version of this contact is in Sims, 1903 and 1907). Thus he 'laid' to rest the 'ghost' of Jack the Ripper as he divulged in 1914, a too-opaque revelation ignored then and now.

Macnaghten kept this bombshell entirely to himself because he did not trust Anderson, or anybody else, not to leak the information that the Ripper was long deceased.

But in 1894 the Cutbush tabloid tale might have pried loose the true story from Dorset again as it had leaked once in 1891. There was always the danger of it happening again, on any day.

Plus if the North Country Vicar of 1899 means Druitt then Macnaghten also was aware that something of the true story was scheduled to be revealed at the tenth aniiversary of Druitt's burial -- a tale moreover which would do Scotland Yard no good at all.

In 1894 Mac put on file that Druitt was a suspect, but a minor one about whom the police had no hard evidence or even hard information either -- except that his family 'believed' because he was sexually insane. This ludicrous paradox would just have to be faced down if it came to it, and it didn't.

The Vicar source also explains why Mac acted in contradictory directions: both concealing Druitt from the state and somewhat revealing him to the public -- but hidden by being semi-fictionalised. Sure enough he was never found.

Mac got in first via 'Aberconway', via Griffiths and then Sims, the latter specifically debunking the Vicar -- quite rudely and inaccurately.

Mac in 1894 also somewhat elevated two minor suspects, one of whom, by 1898, Macnaghten knew was not a doctor (just as Druitt was not one either) and who had been completely cleared of the Whitechapel crimes (eg. Ostrog in France). But Mac needed two window-dressing suspects for the big shot writers and so 'Kosminski' and Ostrog stayed on the list as he had decided to semi-fictionalise them too, like Druitt.

Anderson needed to be distracted by a chief suspect so he quite falsely told his loathed chief that 'Kosminski' had been sectioned soon after Kelly (well, five months after) and who was conveniently deceased (whereas Mac knew Aaron Kosminski was very much alive and out and about for a long time after Kelly's murder: see 'Aberconway' plus Sims, 1907).

Sure enough from the moment, in 1895, he had his masturbating lunatic Anderson began blabbing to the press, just as Mac expected -- hence the need to keep the real deceased chief susoect, Druitt, a secret from the rest of the police to protect his family.

Sims likely knew Druitt's full name because a minor comic writer, Frank Richardson from the Edwardian era, also knew the real name (eg. 'Dr Bluitt') and it is quite arrogant of Sims to not write the full name to the former head of the Special Branch.

Later, Macnaghten could easily get around Littlechild's revelation if Sims queried him, with the reply: Littlechild has it backwards: confusing 'Dr T' with 'Dr D' because Tumblety died of natural causes in 1903.

Of course Jack Littlechild has no idea about 'Dr D', and assumed wrongly it must be a garbled version of 'Dr T' (and is not completely wrong) by Anderson via Griffiths, as nobody at the Yard knew anything about Druitt except Macnaghten.

The common interpretation of the primary police sources -- that they are all desperately flailing with competing non-suspects -- arguably misses the real story completely. Macnaghten knew all about everybody, and all the suspects, and he manipulated the data to 'keep everyone satisfied' (Fred Wensley).

Just consider, Phil, what all secondary sources had missed until now: that Macnaghten knew 'Kosminski' was alive and Anderson (based on his son's biography) and Donald Swanson did not (in both 1895 and 1910) or Swanson is merely repeating Anderson's opinion rather than confirming it -- but that still means he does not know the truth about that suspect either.

Of course Reid, Abberline, Smith et al know nothing about Druitt. How could they? It was a 'private' investigation by Mac in 1891, and kept private (Abblerine's comments of 1903 are simply wrong: Druitt was not a medical student, was not the subject of Home Office Report, and was not suspected because of the timing of his suicide -- because the date of his demise was way too early).

What complicates the issue is that Macnaghten, via cronies, created the myth of the all-efficient police force who knew the identity of 'Jack' just before he killed himself and were about to make an arrest. Yet Mac's own memoirs dismissed this fun, [institutionally] self-serving red herring, one he had himself, anonymously, set up and then discarded in retirement.

[Wickerman]

[QUOTE

Wickerman.....libations, hail the queen of the May, Hey ho who is there etc.

At the age of 32 I caught pneumonia, I look younger than my age but when I was taken to hospital, by my parents they said "I looked like an old man", friends that visited me said the exact same thing, 60 or 70 year old was the terms used. I was put in a cubicle to wait for a Doctor.....straped up to all kinds of machines that go ping minutes later I was in crash, pretty close to death.

I know this is not quite the same as mental illness but being ill can make you look a lot older than you are.

Yes Dave, but were you also fit enough to walk the streets for 3 months killing prostitutes?
Apparently, you were not even fit enough to get out of bed....


Regards, Jon S.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Martin,

I am only guessing here- but as the letter was a response to Sims, who was clearly convinced of the drowned doctor idea of MM, I'd say that he knew the Druitt name from MM, and wrote 'Dr D' in reference to what MM had told him.

If MM hadn't told Sims the complete name, then this also explains it.

Conversely however, and as I read your post, it is strange that Littlechild didnt know of this obviously well-known drowned doctnr suspect by 1913. Plenty of others had known about him, and even more strangely, Tumblety is supposed, according to Littlechild, to have disappeared without a trace AND was thought to have drowned as well.

So not only didn't Littlechild know of MM's prime suspect,
known by many others, Dr D, he didnt know what happened to him when others were hunting the man down from his own Dept, (Andrews) and asking after him (Anderson), and to top all that, Littlechild, having said Tumblety disappeared without a trace, THEN states that he believed (falsely) Tumblety to have drowned.

The question is, What does this indicate?

Littlechild gave mistaken information to Sims.
Swanson gave mistaken information in his marginalia.
MacNagthen gave mistaken information in his memoranda.
Anderson gave mistaken information (according to others) in his writings.

And Reid told the world that ALL of the above was rubbish.

All we need in the next few years is further revelations found via other officers (Williamson, Arnold, Froest, Melville, Godley, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all!)
Fear not- there's an anniversary coming up. LOL!

Best wishes

Phil

[martin wilson]

Who was the 'Dr D' referred to in the Littlechild letter? it seems strange that Macnaghten also referred,however erroneously to a Dr D.
Coincidence?
All the best.

[DirectorDave]

[QUOTE
It doesn't help me get over the idea that a 23 yr old could look "middle-aged", that being my biggest hurdle with respect to Kosminski being the killer.
[/QUOTE]

First off Beowulf.....tremendous post!

Wickerman.....libations, hail the queen of the May, Hey ho who is there etc.

At the age of 32 I caught pneumonia, I look younger than my age but when I was taken to hospital, by my parents they said "I looked like an old man", friends that visited me said the exact same thing, 60 or 70 year old was the terms used. I was put in a cubicle to wait for a Doctor.....straped up to all kinds of machines that go ping minutes later I was in crash, pretty close to death.

I know this is not quite the same as mental illness but being ill can make you look a lot older than you are.

[Jonathan H]

T Dave

I think that's fair enough, I would just counter that it is not speculation.

It is what a primary source, Macnaghten, claims was the solution. He is backed by two primary sources, about the MP, which predate his involvement -- arguably three if the 1899 Vicar means Druitt.

The standard for historical evidence for a provsional solution is very different from that of a forensic or legal one.

eg. Old Etonians Sir Melville Macnaghten and Henry Farquharson agreed that one of their own, a Tory, a Gentile, a Gentleman, an Oxonian and a cricketer was the fiend -- posthumously!

A too-late suspect who could never receive due process.

How do you know he was not just as mad as a March Hare and saying things which were delusional.

Yet Mac coukd not get Montie off the hook; only disguise him for public consumption to protect a respectable family (who become anomic 'friends').

For such a solution could bring the Conservative Party nothing but trouble so sure enough the story is allegedly debunked in early 1892 in a Tory paper.

The story could bring nothing but trouble for Scotland Yard and so sure enough it is reshaped -- by Mac alone -- as a near success from 1898, in which the police were about to arrest the 'doctor' (Mac conceded that this was not so in 1914).

Druitt's own family 'believed', when usually family members are the last to be convinced -- even after the maniac is convicted.

[Cogidubnus]

Also, if a man makes a confession to being a high functioning, homicidal, 'sexual maniac', and the record of his movements checks out, and blood-stained clothes are found, and he knew his way round the East End from Anglican-charity work, and he takes his own life soon after confessing rather than join his ill mother in the asylum system, is that all still merely 'hearsay' evidence?

No Jonathan...because of it's nature it's actually conjectural evidence...ie based on informed speculation...which doesn't of course make it any less interesting...just slightly less convincing...

All the best

Dave

[Jonathan H]

To Phil Carter

That's perfectly reasonable.

I would just add that Macnaghten, by implication, agrees with you about two of those suspects -- who begin with him anyway in the exant record -- in his 1913 comments, and his 1914 memoirs.

They are not viable suspects, and one of them, Ostrog, has an iron-clad alibi about which Mac was aware when he misled his literary cronies in 1898.

Also, if a man makes a confession to being a high functioning, homicidal, 'sexual maniac', and the record of his movements checks out, and blood-stained clothes are found, and he knew his way round the East End from Anglican-charity work, and he takes his own life soon after confessing rather than join his ill mother in the asylum system, is that all still merely 'hearsay' evidence?

[Phil Carter]

I believe Phil's questions are impossible to answer in a pro-killer argument because hearsay and alleged mental illnesses are not anywhere near enough to accuse anyone of any violent crime.

In a ghetto, which Whitechapel was, you will find any number of mentally ill people, abandoned by their own family or institutions, and we know of quite a few people in that area at that time who had psychological problems.

Few if any of them would have the wherewithal to cut flaps off a midsection in order to gain unfettered access to internal organs, and even fewer would be able to extract any organ with what some medical experts suggested was considerable skill.

Someone told someone about something they suspected about Druitt and that makes him a likely suspect? One of the 3 main suspects? Oh yes...and one other of those 3 "main" suspects was in jail in Europe while the killings took place.

What someone said means very little without corroborating and supporting evidence to substantiate it.

Best regards,

Mike R

Hello Mike,

Indeed. That is precisely why I raised said questions in the first place. I simply cannot see (with respect to all) that the MacNagthen 3 can be, on balance, and with pure lack of motive, lack of (non heresay) evidence and sheer lack of evidence of being in attendance in the area on the dates required, as being classed as viable suspects.

best wishes

Phil

[Beowulf]

Excellent post.

Just saw this. Thank you, was extremely complimented by this

[Scott Nelson]

The counter is that the old notion that Druitt is being mixed up, by forgetful Mac, with somebody else -- we see another desperate, veteran poster trying this on right now -- was ended by the 2008 identification of a source who knew both Druitt and Macnaghten.

Please go easy on me. I told you, I'm still a minor and I'm not desperate. You, a teacher, should know better, and wouldn't want to ruin my emerging self-esteem, would you?

[Jonathan H]

To MWR

You could be right.

It's just that another way of looking at it is that Macnaghten agrees with you about Ostrog, and 'Kosminski' by exlcuding them completely from his own account of the case in 1913 and 1914.

He also agrees with you about the 'drowned doctor' too, dumping much of it's fictitious outer shell in his memoirs.

Macnaghten never meant for his opinion to be defined to the official or unofficial versions of his internal report, the former never sent and the latter publicly disseminated through cronies -- but anonymously.

In the modern era Anderson's 1910 memoirs are gone over with a fine-tooth comb, but Mac's are neglected?


Another interpretation of the meagre sources is not that someone told somebody something, but rather that a privately tormented Montague Druitt told an intimate, perhaps a member of his own family, that he was the Ripper.

Before he could be sectioned he killed himself. A family of doctors could not posthumously clear him as merely delusional, instead they diagnosed him as a 'sexual maniac' (and/or an epileptic maniac) and they tried -- and failed -- to keep the ghastly truth a secret.

Nothing which came after, not more Whitechapel murders, more suspects, more arrests, shook the respectable, 'good' family's abhorrent, unwanted, and ruinous 'belief', and when a discreet, well-connected Assistant Chief Constable checked out the leaked story 'some years after' he also 'believed' and also never stopped.

In terms of legal and forensic evidence there is nothing there -- and arguably never was since Druitt was only suspected by the state when he was beyond due process. In terms of historical methodology, on the other hand, it's arguably very strong.

In Sims we have a veiled glimpse of Macnaghten meeting with William Druitt. He may have also interviewed the person Druitt to whom confessed.