Faecal matter on apron piece

[Phil Carter]

Phil,

Shame, you didnt manage to draw me on that in the direction you hoped for. Shame.

Are you quite compos mentis this evening?

And, as far as books go, Rob Clack's brilliant suggestion about laundry is a direction you might profitably pursue.

Don.

Hello Don,

You have previously tried to get me to say tha Halse was the accomplice. I have stated that had Halse NOT been a policeman he would have been ideally situated both time and in terms of being the only known person known to have been at the locations in order to have taken and placed the apron piece. THAT is the direction you have previously tried to get me to expand upon, as it would allow you to defend Halse as you did in your article. I wont expand upon it as it was only an observation.

As far as your last comment is concerned, jumping on the back of other people's attempted witticisms shows your intent- which is treated with the contempt it dererves. I respectfully suggest you refrain from further pointed personal comment. Thank you.

Best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Rob,

The risk isnt how he gets out, primarily whilst he is there it is chance against who comes in.
Am so glad you mentioned sound- because if the killer is able to hear footsteps, then the nightwatchman missed TWO sets of them- in company- one of a woman wearing heavy men's boots. Ever heard two 'lovers' walking into a secluded and surrounded spot that is compacj and surrounded by brick walls and buildings? They tend to talk and laugh. Feet scrape. Missed steps and half stumbles. The squase was enclosed by high buildings and a wall. Archways out of entrances. One allewway perhaps 15 secs long to walk down. Also enclosed.

The nightwatchman opened a door possibly whilst the killer was at work. He may not have seen the light emitted but I submit that he (the killer) HEARD the door being opened. They werent silent in those days, and the nightwatchman had no reason to open it carefully in silence either.

Every second the killer was there the time and surroundings provided an increase in risk.

'In my book' was a response to Dave. Why don't you try taking the mickey out of him whilst you are trying to be funny? The attempt only reflects upon you Rob., I suggest we stick to the subject eh?


Best wishes

Phil

[Supe]

Phil,

Shame, you didnt manage to draw me on that in the direction you hoped for. Shame.

Are you quite compos mentis this evening?

And, as far as books go, Rob Clack's brilliant suggestion about laundry is a direction you might profitably pursue.

Don.

[Monty]

Hi Monty,

Was the order given that all the beats should be worked left-handed or was it just a select few?

Regards, Bridewell.

I do not know. It would have been easier to make the call at muster, in front of all Beat PCs Colin, so Id say the chances are all of them were told to reverse.

However we do not know that.

She wouldnt have know that Phil, asleep or awake. The cells were quite seperate from the station itself, with thick re-inforced walls. They may have mustered in the yard however due to its location near the cells, I do not think such information would have been stated there.

Yard = Red
Cells = Green

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Don,

'Jack the Ripper' being a super cunning and elusive murderer idea is not my idea- the opposite infact. That old idea is from the blow-up of the press at the time. I argue against that 'tired old argument'.
As for who placed the rag bit- I don't know- but I don't at this moment in time rule out the possibility of an accomplice. (the 2 men Halse met are of interest) Shame, you didnt manage to draw me on that in the direction you hoped for. Shame.

as far as my 'rhetoric' is concerned, when you come up with answers to all the questions that remain unanswered, I will gladly read your book.

Best wishes

Phil

[Rob Clack]

Hello Rob,

Sorry to disappoint you, but no book.
Tinkered a few years ago with an historical non-fiction work to do with the Nazi Regime but that's on hold for other, non-litarary reasons.

My mistake, when you said "in my book that doesn't wash", I thought you had a book on 'How to do laundry, Norwegian style" coming out.

As far as time used is concerned, and as far as I am aware, the killer wouldn't KNOW how much time he had, would he? Unless you assume as fact that he DID know? And he wouldn't know about any person wandering about either to catch sight of him -not just a policeman.
No risk? Every secound he stayed with that body was a potential risk.
3 entrances into Mitre Square- one of which from where he was he could not see- the one from Mitre Street. One or possibly two he would have his back towards whilst he worked on the body at ground level.

Best wishes

Phil

Not a fact, I was just using a bit of common sense. It would only take a couple of seconds to cut the apron. In my opinion he saw Harvey and followed him out. Harvey turned right, Jack turned left and had a clear run for a couple of blocks.
Three exits, three ways out, no risk as he could hear any foot steps approaching like Harveys. Hanbury Street and Millers Court. That's what you call a risk.

Rob

[Supe]

Phil,

You constantly set up "straw men" or false arguments, of which the following is an example: This cold blooded brilliant avoider of policemen who so brilliantly times these crimes with such efficiency to enable him to leave NO trace.of being caught RISKS doing exactly that with a simple mistake that would blow his game.

Such a rhetorical device allows you to make your tired old argument with a flourish, but it is quite divorced from reality -- or at least of any reality for which we have real evidence. Instead of the "super-criminal" you posit to make your argument, the killer of Kate could as easily have been a lucky bumbler who would gladly have walked off with an apron piece without initially realizing the danger that posed.

Moreover, if not the killer, then who did remove the apron piece and leave it in Goulston Street?

Don.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

Exactly. In a cell. Drunk. Sleeping it off?
Presumption that she knew or heard or remembered the change in beat would be highly improbable, I submit.

Best wishes

Phil

[Bridewell]

Beat Changing

The City police changed their beats that night, whilst Eddowes was in custody.

Monty

Hi Monty,

Was the order given that all the beats should be worked left-handed or was it just a select few?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

The City police changed their beats that night, whilst Eddowes was in custody.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the reply.
Pertaining to the last paragraph, relating to the placement of the rag and possibly the writing, if your hypothesis be correct- it indicates the killer/and or 'apron piece carrier' would know the movements of the police beat either prior to the murder or whilst observing from said bolt hole.
That in turn would make any thought of Eddowes herself less likely to be the one to know the police beats(as has been suggested elsewhere) and make it more likely to have been her assailant who knew or made such observations, would it not?

Best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Rob,

Sorry to disappoint you, but no book.
Tinkered a few years ago with an historical non-fiction work to do with the Nazi Regime but that's on hold for other, non-litarary reasons.

As far as time used is concerned, and as far as I am aware, the killer wouldn't KNOW how much time he had, would he? Unless you assume as fact that he DID know? And he wouldn't know about any person wandering about either to catch sight of him -not just a policeman.
No risk? Every secound he stayed with that body was a potential risk.
3 entrances into Mitre Square- one of which from where he was he could not see- the one from Mitre Street. One or possibly two he would have his back towards whilst he worked on the body at ground level.

Best wishes

Phil

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Phil,

Nice to see you too.

Heres what I believe occurred....a handkerchief that the killer had with him was used to wipe his hands off because of the "guck" he would have had on them, and the apron section was used to transport the organs from the scene.

Lets not forget that there is over an hour from when the section was taken and when it appeared in the Goulston doorway. The PC stated that "the apron section was not there" at around 2:20 when he passed by the spot. I believe a bolt hole or home is where that killer went after that murder.

And he, or someone else, placed the section and writing there between the PC's beat passes.

Cheers Phil,

Mike R

[Rob Clack]

Hello Dave,

THIS is where I am going-

Why did the killer not simply wipe his hands and knife on the masses of available material smack bang right in front of him? No, instead he uses more time to neatly cut away a piece of rag to take with him to wipe his hands as he flees the scene risking being caught 'red handed' literally.

THAT doesnt make sense Dave. This cold blooded brilliant avoider of policemen who so brilliantly times these crimes with such efficiency to enable him to leave NO trace.of being caught RISKS doing exactly that with a simple mistake that would blow his game.

In MY book, that doesnt wash.

Best wishes

Phil

I think you will find he had more than enough time to cut the apron and get at least two blocks away from Mitre Square before he would even see a police officer.
There was never a risk involved.

Rob

P.S. Whens your book coming out.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mike,

Ltns! Hope you are well!

Of course, your scenario is quite plausible- but again it leaves a couple of questions.
1) if the killer used the rag piece to transport the body part, why didnt he use the material that he took to the murder with him?
2) when dumping the rag in GS, how did he then transport the body part? Surely not in the material he could have used in the first place?

But ok, let us say that this intrepid genius hit upon the idea of deliberately taking said rag piece to Gs to bring proof of the writing to light and connect the rag piece, writing and murder.

Now- this forward thinking genius STILL has the body piece on his person. Which again puts his methods of being one step ahead in danger if stopped.

So before he dumps the rag piece in GS, he has on his person a body part, a knife,a rag from the dead woman, a gore soaked material piece of his own, a possible mucky jacket, shirt or trousers, and all this whilst he is a cunning genius walking about and into an area screaming with policemen because of the 1st murder in the very area he is walking towards!

No way José. Or as Del Boy says, No way Pedro.

I dont know what the answer is to all this, but either the man is a genius or a complete idiot. Forward planners with expert timing of their crimes cover every eventuality, not make silly errors of happenchance.

To me it just doesnt make sense.

Best wishes

Phil