Faecal matter on apron piece

[lynn cates]

signs

Hello Dr. Thanks. Apropos Cris' thread, I have always been struck by:

1. The presence of 2 distinct cuts on Polly and Annie's throats. The lack on Kate's.

2. The overt signs of strangulation with Polly and Annie. None such with Kate.

3. The intact clothing with Polly and Annie. Kate's being ripped and torn.

Pottery? Thanks, I teach some Humanities classes and so it is incumbent upon me to describe amphorae, kraters and Minoan libation jugs. But merely superficial stuff.

Cheers.
LC

[DrHopper]

Hello Dr. Thanks. I had intended "Geometric" not "Orientalising." Oops.

But you see, the different descriptions between Polly and Annie on the one hand, and Kate on the other strike me as no less glaring.

Cheers.
LC

Ha!
I work in the Bronze Age of Greece, so all this Iron Age stuff is virtually modern to me! I go as far as the Proto-Geometric and then stop!

I guess that the differences you perceive are not as apparent to me. I simply find it hard to believe that any 'normal' person would mutilate a body. To find more than one person willing and able to do that in a small geographic area is stretching it a bit, in my opinion. I don't think there is any disparity between Polly, Annie and Kate, they are all 3 killed and mutilated. Certainly, what happened to Kate is beyond all that had gone before, but there I think we have to look at location and opportunity being seized.

BTW, I'm impressed with your knowledge of pottery - it's only us outcasts of society (pottery experts) who know this stuff normally!
DrH

[lynn cates]

glaring

Hello Dr. Thanks. I had intended "Geometric" not "Orientalising." Oops.

But you see, the different descriptions between Polly and Annie on the one hand, and Kate on the other strike me as no less glaring.

Cheers.
LC

[DrHopper]

Hello (again) Dr. Thanks.

Regarding your pottery metaphor, consider this. A colleague (better: an intern) comes to you with two shards purportedly found by him. One is about 2 inches long and an inch wide. It evinces the typical meander design of a krater from the Greek "Orientalising" era. Then he presents a second one, this time, a large fragment of a Hittite deity (like the one found at Catal Huyuk).

Q: Do you lump them together?

Cheers.
LC

Absolutely not.
Firstly the differences between them would be immediately obvious (shape, paint, firing techniques, surface treatment, etc.) differences as obvious as a mutilated prostitute from a Cholera victim or standard beaten 'brawl' victim.

Secondly, they are separated by thousands of years, and many hundreds of miles.

Thirdly, they represent different meanings and purposes.

If he were to present two statue fragments, made from the same material, corresponding to the same forms, from the same site, from broadly the same period, and representing the same/similar deities, then yes, I would.

Using the macroscopic lens, mutilated women with their throats cut in Whitechapel, all from the same social group and living in the same area, all need to be lumped together. This does not happen all the time, is not a common occurrence, and is not normal - hence the ensuing hue and cry from the people living there.

[lynn cates]

fine points

Hello Dr. Thanks for the kind words.

"Ok, fair enough. You are right that the traditional view is that they were all prostitutes, and that there may be some debate as to whether they were or not."

Quite.

"I think a lot (most?) women in their situation would have dabbled in prostitution at some point or another - easy (relatively) money, etc."

Possibly. But I cannot speak with authority here.

"I personally don't think it matters too much if they were prostitutes or not, the end result is that they were the lowest of the low in terms of society - that is the crucial detail."

Happy with this. I think it proper to assume they were not wealthy. (heh-heh)

"Surely 4 of the C5 were mutilated to a lesser or greater extent."

Indeed.

"I tend to discount Stride because of a lack of mutilation (among other reasons)."

Very well. No argument.

"Ok, more specifically, within Whitechapel people are being stabbed, but there is very little mutilation going on in that area."

Alright.

"Absolutely, and I should state here that I respect the work that you do, and have done, as well as anyone else's that looks at the smaller points. We differ on tactics and meaning, that is all!"

And that's fair enough. Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[DrHopper]

Hi Lynn

"[L]ooking through a macroscopic lens what we have is a person killing prostitutes and mutilating them in a gruesome manner."

Well, what we have is SOME prostitutes being killed and mutilated (Polly and Annie); and, another, SAID to be a prostitute (Kate). As long as one makes this assumption, one will likely draw the same conclusion.

Ok, fair enough. You are right that the traditional view is that they were all prostitutes, and that there may be some debate as to whether they were or not. I think a lot (most?) women in their situuation would have dabbled in prostitution at some point or another - easy (relatively) money, etc. I personally don't think it matters too much if they were prostitutes or not, the end result is that they were the lowest of the low in terms of society - that is the crucial detail.

"This is the one defining characteristic of the JTR killings, and it allows them to be lumped together simply because they do stand out against the background noise of murder without the mutilation."

IF this were in fact a characteristic of the 3 murders, then it may well be defining. (But see above.)

Surely 4 of the C5 were mutilated to a lesser or greater extent. I tend to discount Stride because of a lack of mutilation (among other reasons).

"Certainly, people are being stabbed, but no one else is doing the mutilating."

Not sure what you mean. Surely there were at least 2 other mutilation killings in England in 1888 (Beetmore and a young boy). And no one attributes them to the same killer.

Ok, more specifically, within Whitechapel people are being stabbed, but there is very little mutilation going on in that area.

"I think it is folly to look at the minor differences in the shape, location, even purpose, of the mutilation and declare that they are from a different hand or enacted by different drivers."

I understand and respect that. But from my perspective, it is folly not to.

Cheers.
LC

Absolutely, and I should state here that I respect the work that you do, and have done, as well as anyone else's that looks at the smaller points. We differ on tactics and meaning, that is all!

Cheers,
DrH

[lynn cates]

not only . . . but also . . .

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Were Annie and Kate similarly opened up?"

In the WAY they were opened up? No.

In THAT they were opened up? (My meaning.) Yes. (Sorry for not being precise.)

"Certainly not--anymore than Kate was."

"PROPOGANDA ALERT !!!"

A comparison. (And it's propaganda--heh-heh.)

"That`ll be woman, not women, Lynn, . . . "

Very well. Mea culpa.

" . . . and I don`t think anyone seriously thought the Birtley murderer was the Whitechapel murderer . . . "

Initially or upon consideration?

Similarly, does anyone think there was a JTR?

Initially, or upon consideration? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

The young boy? The report had him being laid open like Annie and Kate.

Were Annie and Kate similarly opened up?

[QUOTE ]
Certainly not--anymore than Kate was.[/QUOTE]

PROPOGANDA ALERT !!!

"Which other women, and whose opinion of the possible culprit do you refer to, please?"
1. Jane Beetmore.
2. Dr. Phillips, if I recall properly.

That`ll be woman, not women, Lynn, and I don`t think anyone seriously thought the Birtley murderer was the Whitechapel murderer, especially when the victims boyfriend (the last person seen with the victim) does a runner.

[lynn cates]

errata

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"They could not be any more different."

Oh, they could be more different. At least, the Met sent some one (I believe Dr. Phillips) scurrying to check the cadaver. The young boy? The report had him being laid open like Annie and Kate.

"Do you think these two were done by the Whitechapel Murderer?"

Certainly not--anymore than Kate was.

"Which other women, and whose opinion of the possible culprit do you refer to, please?"

1. Jane Beetmore.

2. Dr. Phillips, if I recall properly.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

And yet, other women were opened but their demise is not laid to "JTR."

Which other women, and whose opinion of the possible culprit do you refer to, please ?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Surely there were at least 2 other mutilation killings in England in 1888 (Beetmore and a young boy). And no one attributes them to the same killer.

They could not be any more different.

Do you think these two were done by the Whitechapel Murderer?

[lynn cates]

pottery

Hello (again) Dr. Thanks.

"That is the point, that is the signature - the opening of women."

And yet, other women were opened but their demise is not laid to "JTR."

Regarding your pottery metaphor, consider this. A colleague (better: an intern) comes to you with two shards purportedly found by him. One is about 2 inches long and an inch wide. It evinces the typical meander design of a krater from the Greek "Orientalising" era. Then he presents a second one, this time, a large fragment of a Hittite deity (like the one found at Catal Huyuk).

Q: Do you lump them together?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

lens polishing

Hello Dr. Thanks.

"[L]ooking through a macroscopic lens what we have is a person killing prostitutes and mutilating them in a gruesome manner."

Well, what we have is SOME prostitutes being killed and mutilated (Polly and Annie); and, another, SAID to be a prostitute (Kate). As long as one makes this assumption, one will likely draw the same conclusion.

"This is the one defining characteristic of the JTR killings, and it allows them to be lumped together simply because they do stand out against the background noise of murder without the mutilation."

IF this were in fact a characteristic of the 3 murders, then it may well be defining. (But see above.)

"Certainly, people are being stabbed, but no one else is doing the mutilating."

Not sure what you mean. Surely there were at least 2 other mutilation killings in England in 1888 (Beetmore and a young boy). And no one attributes them to the same killer.

"I think it is folly to look at the minor differences in the shape, location, even purpose, of the mutilation and declare that they are from a different hand or enacted by different drivers."

I understand and respect that. But from my perspective, it is folly not to.

Cheers.
LC

[John Wheat]

Dr Hopper makes some good points about the mutilations and I too believe that the GSG is a coincidence and that the placement of the apron piece was not placed deliberately.

[lynn cates]

narrative

Hello Mike, Tom. Agreed.

And the most important part of such a "narrative" is that it be consistent.

Whether it is right or wrong requires historical evidence to confirm/disconfirm the items in the narrative.

Cheers.
LC