Faecal matter on apron piece

[PaulB]

All our sources are highly questionable. There is no valid reason to believe any one over any other.

Historians seem to manage it all the time, Simon. Not prioritizing sources is just bad history.

[mariab]

I sense you somehow missed the underlying sub-text in my post.

Didn't miss it, was just trying to be discreet about "low flying pigs".
And was just teasing about “a self-confessed conspiracist". :-)

and freely admit that the idea makes far more sense than the worn-out trope of a serial-killing Jack the Ripper dragging his unfulfilled lustmord around the streets of the East End whilst outwitting two police forces for all eternity.

Like it didn't happen even recently, with the Green River Killer (this one going on for decades) and in a multitude of cases.

[PaulB]

I seem to have heard that the Pinkerton papers were in Chicago, only recently (post 2000) transferred to DC.
I don't suppose that the prostitute in question has anything to do with the Ms. Worth sometimes discussed by Lynn?
I think Adam Worth was indirectly connected to the Cavendish, as he stole and was about to resell a Gainsborough painting representing a lady from the Cavendish clan when he got arrested. Small world.

To Paul Begg:
Can I email you about the conference later tonight? (I'm burning up with fever.)

Yes, of course. Take care.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Maria,

A cold compress usually does the trick.

I sense you somehow missed the underlying sub-text in my post.

All our sources are highly questionable. There is no valid reason to believe any one over any other.

A self-confessed "conspiracist"?

As I explained to Monty, I am exploring the possibility of a conspiracy/intrigue/plot/ploy etc. etc. [as anyone in search of the truth and not in deep denial should] and freely admit that the idea makes far more sense than the worn-out trope of a serial-killing Jack the Ripper dragging his unfulfilled lustmord around the streets of the East End whilst outwitting two police forces for all eternity.

Regards,

Simon

[mariab]

I seem to have heard that the Pinkerton papers were in Chicago, only recently (post 2000) transferred to DC.
I don't suppose that the prostitute in question has anything to do with the Ms. Worth sometimes discussed by Lynn?
I think Adam Worth was indirectly connected to the Cavendish, as he stole and was about to resell a Gainsborough painting representing a lady from the Cavendish clan when he got arrested. Small world.

To Paul Begg:
Can I email you about the conference later tonight? (I'm burning up with fever.)

[PaulB]

To Paul Begg:
Thank you so much for all this! I'll look it up.


Heard of that. Mike Hawley has worked a bit on this, as far as I'm concerned?


Just did. He sounds a bit like a French Robin Odell.

A good guy. Both Stephan and Robin.

[PaulB]

Me too, but I still wanna look. The multitude of sources are currently in the Library of Congress (in DC), but there might be some Pinkertons related stuff at the archives of the Chicago PD.

I believe that Ben McIntyre pulled some interesting material from the Pinkerton archives in his excellent Napoleon of Crime about Adam Worth, in particular Worth's opinion of the police and of John Shore, who Worth tried to 'honey trap' with a prostitute he used to visit (ostensibly because she was one of his snouts.

[mariab]

To Paul Begg:
Thank you so much for all this! I'll look it up.

Goodness knows where there would be papers - Abberline worked for the Pinkerton's; I don't know what they've got.

Heard of that. Mike Hawley has worked a bit on this, as far as I'm concerned?

Have you thought of Stephane Bourgoin as a speaker? Google him.

Just did. He sounds a bit like a French Robin Odell.

[PaulB]

Hello Paul,

In most cases, I have.

I'm surprised you have reached the conclusions you have then, but maybe you have researched the history of the police at this time more than I have or have seen different material. However, I would agree with some of your sentiments in principle, but for different reasons.

[PaulB]

Fascinating.
I'm personally interested in the William Henry Joyce accusation that Anderson used agents provocateurs to plant bombs on suspected Fenians to justify their arrest. These are distinctively the same methods used by the Okhrana, and I wish there was a possibility of further investigating Piòtr Rachkovsky's activities in London from the summer of 1888 on.

Joyce is acknowledged as being a difficult and questionable source to use, and, as said, as far as I am aware his book has never been published. It is also acknowledged by various people that it is difficult to determine how much the likes of Anderson would have known about what their 'agents' were up to. But, as I say, I'm not an expert in these matters.

I'd also very much wish that someone would be interested in giving a talk on the intricacies of the British police (particularly about Warren allegedly trying to regimentalise the police force) during a criminological conference I'm trying to organise in Paris in 2014 or 2015. We'll have a French criminologist giving a talk about the French police methods (which were starkly regimentalized and centralized, compared to Britain), plus I'm still looking for someone French wishing to talk about the Police de Sûreté and Eugène François Vidocq (which was another shady character of much interest).

I'm not sure where you can read up about the 'regimentalisation' of the police. Warren was appointed to bring discipline to what was thought to be a force in disarray. After Bloody Sunday he was to some extent reviled by a segment of the press and actions he took were seen as regimentalisation.

Where can I read up on all this, apart from Porter and The rise of Scotland Yard by Douglas G Browne (1956)?
Did Queen Victoria dislike Monro? I thought it was him who essentially controlled the Special Branch, plus I think it was him (Monro) who apppointed inspector Abberline to Scotland Yard from H Division (Whitechapel) in 1887? I've also heard that Swanson was allegedly consulting Monro during the autumn of terror – via the HO and much to the annoyance of Charles Warren?

What's room 56?

Was just wondering, where would you reckon in America? I was planning on looking up some stuff there in the coming fall/winter, particularly the Pinkerton papers in the hope of finding some reference to inspector Andrews. I have the possibility of transferring sources from other American archives to the Uni. of Chicago, though in a limited fashion.

It was Salisbury who blamed Monro for a lot of the ills of the force at the time of his resignation. Goodness knows where there would be papers - Abberline worked for the Pinkerton's; I don't know what they've got. Have you thought of Stephane Bourgoin as a speaker? Google him.

Paul

[mariab]

Hi Maria,
I doubt you'll find anything in the Pinkerton archives about Inspector Andrews.

Me too, but I still wanna look. The multitude of sources are currently in the Library of Congress (in DC), but there might be some Pinkertons related stuff at the archives of the Chicago PD.

At the height of the Scotland Yard shenanigans in North America on behalf of The Times, Robert A. Pinkerton wrote in a letter to the New York Herald, which appeared in the New York Tribune, 26th January 1889, that "Inspector Andrews is unknown to us."

An official denial in the press? I'm surprised that you, a self-proclaimed "conspiracist" are satisfied with this. ;-)

Beware of low-flying pigs and, in keeping with the title of this thread, any associated faecal matter.

Trying to stay as far of fecal matter as possible, but not always manageable. :-)

[Simon Wood]

Hi Maria,

I doubt you'll find anything in the Pinkerton archives about Inspector Andrews.

At the height of the Scotland Yard shenanigans in North America on behalf of The Times, Robert A. Pinkerton wrote in a letter to the New York Herald, which appeared in the New York Tribune, 26th January 1889, that "Inspector Andrews is unknown to us."

Beware of low-flying pigs and, in keeping with the title of this thread, any associated faecal matter.

Regards,

Simon

[Phil Carter]

Hello Paul,

In most cases, I have.
I would discuss this further but my time is limited atm. My apologies for the brief reply.

Best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

room 56

Hello Maria. Thanks. Room 56 was Sir Ed's base of operations at Whitehall.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn/Maria, I'm sure you are aware of Bernard Porter's Plots and Paranoia as well as Origins of the Vigilant State. Both are very good books and well worth reading, though seriously out of date, as you say, Lynn. We refer to the Anderson quote cited by Simon in the A to Z, citing Bernard Porter's conclusion that Anderson probably meant fairly innocuous things like searching premises without a warrant (Plots and Paranoia), but, of course, the police activities could have been far more serious is we accept other accusations, notably those of William Henry Joyce to the effect that Anderson used agents provocateur to plant bombs on suspected Fenians to justify their arrest. (O’Broin, The Prime Informer). All the main sources are now very old and there is a real need for some new histories of the SB. I wish they'd give someone like Christopher Andrew access to their files, as MI6 did for The Defence of the Realm, for all the many and manifold deficiencies of that book.

Fascinating.
I'm personally interested in the William Henry Joyce accusation that Anderson used agents provocateurs to plant bombs on suspected Fenians to justify their arrest. These are distinctively the same methods used by the Okhrana, and I wish there was a possibility of further investigating Piòtr Rachkovsky's activities in London from the summer of 1888 on.
I'd also very much wish that someone would be interested in giving a talk on the intricacies of the British police (particularly about Warren allegedly trying to regimentalise the police force) during a criminological conference I'm trying to organise in Paris in 2014 or 2015. We'll have a French criminologist giving a talk about the French police methods (which were starkly regimentalized and centralized, compared to Britain), plus I'm still looking for someone French wishing to talk about the Police de Sûreté and Eugène François Vidocq (which was another shady character of much interest).

Have looked at the reasons why Warren was appointed and the general reaction of the media to his appointment? Have you looked at the way Matthews dealt with the Commissioner's office? Have you looked at the actions of Home Office mandarins like Lushington? Have you looked at Salisbury's correspondence with Queen Victoria about Monro and wondered why he is the only Met Commissioner not to have received a knighthood? Have you considered that senior appointments in the police and prison service etc were generally given to men with military backgrounds? Have you considered the fact that Commissioners and Ast Commissioners often had an Irish or Indian career background and wondered why? Did Warren really try to 'regimentalise' the force, or is this a myth based on his efforts to instill discipline? And have you looked at the role played by the likes of Frederick Williamson and John Shore in buffering the Commissioner and Asst Commissioner from the senior officers and the ranks? And have you considered the conclusions reached by Prof Porter about what Anderson meant by breaking the law? How do you interpret Jenkinson's thoughts about the Met, or the opinion of Arthur Harding, or the closing of ranks around Bogan?

Where can I read up on all this, apart from Porter and The rise of Scotland Yard by Douglas G Browne (1956)?
Did Queen Victoria dislike Monro? I thought it was him who essentially controlled the Special Branch, plus I think it was him (Monro) who apppointed inspector Abberline to Scotland Yard from H Division (Whitechapel) in 1887? I've also heard that Swanson was allegedly consulting Monro during the autumn of terror – via the HO and much to the annoyance of Charles Warren?

I wish someone would do Sir Ed's biography. Shed some light on room 56 and why he met with Michael Davitt not to expose his work. It may have to do with the two letters that Red Jim and O'Brien claimed they had which could bring down Sir Ed. At any rate, they were blackmailing him.

What's room 56?

I guess we'll never know the full ins and outs, although I suspect that there must be some documents somewhere, be they in Britain, Ireland or America.

Was just wondering, where would you reckon in America? I was planning on looking up some stuff there in the coming fall/winter, particularly the Pinkerton papers in the hope of finding some reference to inspector Andrews. I have the possibility of transferring sources from other American archives to the Uni. of Chicago, though in a limited fashion.