Did Jack kill more than three?

[caz]

Hi All,

I have been regularly walking between the various murder locations for more than ten years now, yet it was only very recently that I fully appreciated just how damn close the (alleged) site of the vile attack on Smith is to where Tabram was killed, four months later, both on Bank Holidays. It almost beggars belief, especially in light of the murder statistics that Colin Roberts has produced, showing just how rare it was in the 1880s for adult women anywhere in the country to meet a truly violent end, particularly where there was no suggestion of a domestic motive.

These women were both extremely impoverished street walkers, the easiest type for some boozed up reveller to use for unprovoked target practice, but nothing of any value to gain from the exercise, and everything to lose if he gets buckled for wilful murder.

When I hear of other cases of violent assault by stranger, one for example involving the attempted strangling of one woman followed the same night by the brutal murder of another, with a lump of wood to the head; another involving one woman being hit with a blunt instrument, thought to have been the handle of a knife, followed the same night by another being stabbed with such force that the blade went right through the front of the neck and out at the back, it does make me question the popular notion that men who indulge in unprovoked violence towards perfect strangers will pick one weapon or one method from the beginning and stick with it.

This is not to say that I am convinced Smith and/or Tabram can be added to the ripper's tally, but I would not feel confident enough to rule them out either, given what some men do.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

Mike:

"If the initial, killing wound was the severe one, nothing says that the tip of the same blade could not have been used in a lesser more exploratory way."

Then that tip travelled all the way through lungs, spleen, stomach, liver etc, without giving away that it was part of quite a broad blade, Mike. To once again borrow Tommy Cooperīs wording: Jusīlike that!

Three inches at the least, I should think, must have sunk into Tabramīs body. If you show me a sturdy dagger that does not give away that it is broad three inches down from the tip, a sturdy dagger that only holds pen-knife dimensions in itīs blade three inches from the tip, then I will believe in it.

"Or, it may have been two weapons."

Or it may have been two weapons, yes.

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Three inches at the least, I should think, must have sunk into Tabramīs body. If you show me a sturdy dagger that does not give away that it is broad three inches down from the tip, a sturdy dagger that only holds pen-knife dimensions in itīs blade three inches from the tip, then I will believe in it.

many blades like that Fish. The rondel, the ballock, or bollock dagger, the kidney dagger, even the small sword. All of them as sturdy as can be, easily purchased, and ever slowly broadening to less than one inch where blade meets the haft. I actually own some. In all these cases, the point is the thing, and not the edge. Their purpose was to kill and not to hack and maim. Though often the blade was sharpened for the first few inches.

-One blade to cut them all. One blade to kill them. One blade to find their guts and in the darkness spill them.- (JTR Tolkien)

Mike

[Sally]

Fisherman

Fisherman

You believe that two weapons were used in the murder of Tabram. Do you also think then that there must have been two perpetrators? Or do you think there could have been one man with more than one knife?

Regards

Sally

[Abby Normal]

many blades like that Fish. The rondel, the ballock, or bollock dagger, the kidney dagger, even the small sword. All of them as sturdy as can be, easily purchased, and ever slowly broadening to less than one inch where blade meets the haft. I actually own some. In all these cases, the point is the thing, and not the edge. Their purpose was to kill and not to hack and maim. Though often the blade was sharpened for the first few inches.

-One blade to cut them all. One blade to kill them. One blade to find their guts and in the darkness spill them.- (JTR Tolkien)

Mike

Off topic but The Hobbit movie finally got the greenlight and is in full swing! yeah!

[Abby Normal]

Fisherman

You believe that two weapons were used in the murder of Tabram. Do you also think then that there must have been two perpetrators? Or do you think there could have been one man with more than one knife?

Regards

Sally

Hi Sally good question.

Fish
I second Sally's query here-whats the deal? Surely, an "accidental" or chance run in with Martha as the Ripper's first kill tallies with a perpetrator who is carrying one knife (as was perhaps rather common as you said). But a chance incident with someone carrying 2 Knives?

I think that shows someone out with murderous intent and perhaps even experimentation (as like-which knife works best for what i want to do). Don't you think?

[Abby Normal]

Hi All,

I have been regularly walking between the various murder locations for more than ten years now, yet it was only very recently that I fully appreciated just how damn close the (alleged) site of the vile attack on Smith is to where Tabram was killed, four months later, both on Bank Holidays. It almost beggars belief, especially in light of the murder statistics that Colin Roberts has produced, showing just how rare it was in the 1880s for adult women anywhere in the country to meet a truly violent end, particularly where there was no suggestion of a domestic motive.

These women were both extremely impoverished street walkers, the easiest type for some boozed up reveller to use for unprovoked target practice, but nothing of any value to gain from the exercise, and everything to lose if he gets buckled for wilful murder.

When I hear of other cases of violent assault by stranger, one for example involving the attempted strangling of one woman followed the same night by the brutal murder of another, with a lump of wood to the head; another involving one woman being hit with a blunt instrument, thought to have been the handle of a knife, followed the same night by another being stabbed with such force that the blade went right through the front of the neck and out at the back, it does make me question the popular notion that men who indulge in unprovoked violence towards perfect strangers will pick one weapon or one method from the beginning and stick with it.

This is not to say that I am convinced Smith and/or Tabram can be added to the ripper's tally, but I would not feel confident enough to rule them out either, given what some men do.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz

This is not to say that I am convinced Smith and/or Tabram can be added to the ripper's tally, but I would not feel confident enough to rule them out either, given what some men do.

I agree. I would not rule out Millwood and Wilson either.

[Fisherman]

Mike:

"many blades like that Fish. The rondel, the ballock, or bollock dagger, the kidney dagger, even the small sword. All of them as sturdy as can be, easily purchased, and ever slowly broadening to less than one inch where blade meets the haft. I actually own some. In all these cases, the point is the thing, and not the edge."

Okay, Mike - but MY point is that Killeen STILL saw the heart, and examined it. And a weird blade like that would have left a weird trace in the heart. The imprint of the weapon that shot through her sternum was left there, Mike, for Killeen to read. Plus, the smaller stabs were inflicted while Tabram was alive. Are we to imagine a scenario where the killer first gently probes her thirtyseven times with the blade, not killing her, and then moves on to go for the heart..?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Sally:

"You believe that two weapons were used in the murder of Tabram. Do you also think then that there must have been two perpetrators? Or do you think there could have been one man with more than one knife?"

There MUST not have been two men. But I think it more probable than just the one, switching weapons. And I am very interested in the fact that there were 37 stabs that seem to be the result of a frenzy, whereas there are two wounds that seem deeply focused - one to the heart, and a small cut to the lower abdomen. I also note that these two wounds could BOTH have been produced by the larger weapon.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Abby:

"I think that shows someone out with murderous intent and perhaps even experimentation (as like-which knife works best for what i want to do). Don't you think?"

What I think, abby, is that you may want to read my post to Sally, and then ponder the fact that frenzies are normally anything but premeditated killings.

The best,
Fisherman

[harry]

Yesterday I posted of two murders where a penknife had been driven through the breastbone into the heart.To expand on one of those murders.It was a case of multiple stabbing.Four to the fleshy upper part of the torso,one through the breastbone and into the heart.The wound through the heart was of six inches in depth and two inches wide.There were witnesses to the killing.The assailant was arrested,and the knife produced as evidence.It was described as a penknife.The accused did not contest that the knife was his,and the one used in the killing.Witnesses testified the accused had taken the knife from his pocket, opened out the blade,and stabbed the victim
The doctor who had performed the autopsy,gave evidence as to the wounds.He had had doubts about the kind of weapon that had caused the wound to the heart,but in evidence,agreed that the penknife could have caused it.He expressed no doubts as to the penknife inflicting the four other wounds.
So there is a case of a penknife inflicting five stab wounds,and one of those wounds being so different as to cause doubt.
I have always believed that Tabram's killing was by one person,and one knife.

[The Good Michael]

Mike:
Plus, the smaller stabs were inflicted while Tabram was alive. Are we to imagine a scenario where the killer first gently probes her thirtyseven times with the blade, not killing her, and then moves on to go for the heart..?

I suggest that many of those smaller wounds could have been inflicted while she was expiring and not dead yet. They seem to me exploratory,

The fact is that we don't know what happened and one scenario is as good as another. The weakest scenario, to my mind, is that one man used two different knives. That is the most difficult one to account for regardless of Killeen's ideas which, quite frankly, are no better than anyone else's.

Cheers

Mike

[Sally]

Sally:

"You believe that two weapons were used in the murder of Tabram. Do you also think then that there must have been two perpetrators? Or do you think there could have been one man with more than one knife?"

There MUST not have been two men. But I think it more probable than just the one, switching weapons. And I am very interested in the fact that there were 37 stabs that seem to be the result of a frenzy, whereas there are two wounds that seem deeply focused - one to the heart, and a small cut to the lower abdomen. I also note that these two wounds could BOTH have been produced by the larger weapon.

The best,
Fisherman

Hmm. Well, ok. If you consider the most likely scenario to be that of two men with separate weapons culpable in the Tabram murder then I think you're looking at an unusual circumstance - allowing that perhap all murder must be in a sense considered unusual. What do you envisage, exactly? If you have one man in a stabbing frenzy - and I don't really see how we can do away with the 'frenzy'' element here - what is the other man doing? He's the one responsible for the wound to the heart, and possibly that to the abdomen. Perhaps he is more restrained? Perhaps he is cheering his frenzied companion on?

So, we have two men - that indicates complicity. It doesn't have to be the case that the attack was planned; but it does have to be the case, if there were two, that each of them knew about it. That's quite a secret.

If you were speculating, would you say that either of these men went on to kill other victims commonly assigned to Jtr? And if so, which? The frenzied stabber, or the one who targetted his strkes?

Best regards

Sally

[harry]

Prior to 1888,(and it seems anytime after),very little research had been carried out into bayonet wounds.In fact,according to surveys that had been made before and since that time,only about 0.4 of battle casualties suffered from that type of wound.Those who were killed were buried without any type of post mortem,and of those wounded,only post recovery details could be ascertained.Murder by bayonet has been so rare that I cannot find a case to examine.
Which begs the question,what knowledge of bayonet wounds would Kileen possess,that he could make a comparison in the death of Tabram?

[The Good Michael]

Harry,

I agree that he wouldn't have known much about that. Type of weapon used was surmise, and it was anyone's guess.

Mike