Did Jack kill more than three?

[lynn cates]

It's in the bag

Hello Fish.

"Well, Lynn, it is not as if it was merely a question of just the one knife, is it...?"

Good point. If the stereotype is at all credible, he had a whole Gladstone bag full of knives from which to choose.

Cheers.
LC

[corey123]

Hello Lynn,

That and he, being a magician, pulled it out of the hat.

Honestly, I think this can be explained by Killeens report, most likely performed with a pen-knife. Honestly, I have no clue what a pen-knife looks like, but I have ideas.

Is it like a pocket knife?

If so, it was obviously different than that used in the others murders, supporting both Fishermens and my opinion that this murder was a random oppertunity. Also the date, a Tuesday may speak for that conclusion as well.

Yours truly

[lynn cates]

knife

Hello Corey. A pen knife is rather small. It would easily be carried by some people in certain lines.

Do you think that the larger weapon was from a different source?

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Lynn Cates asks:

"But do you think that "Jack" was carrying a knife through mere happenstance?"

Well, Lynn, it is not as if it was merely a question of just the one knife, is it...? At any rate, yes, many an Eastender would have carried knives on them, and that would perhaps apply to Jack too. It may have been more a question of practicalities (like cutting a piece of leather from oneīs boot) than of happenstance.

There is of course also the possibility that Jack brought a knife along as a response to urges he felt, but were not able to define clearly. Im feeling generous today - take your pick!

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish
Do you think it possible/probable that maybe Millwood was an early ripper victim, and perhaps since then the ripper was "practicing or perfecting" his attacks and decided to bring along more than one knife to see which one(s) worked best-hence 2 different weapons used on tabram?

perhaps millwood was the first "opportunity caught in flight" and tabram was an early "practice"?

[Fisherman]

Abby Normal:

"Do you think it possible/probable that maybe Millwood was an early ripper victim, and perhaps since then the ripper was "practicing or perfecting" his attacks and decided to bring along more than one knife to see which one(s) worked best-hence 2 different weapons used on tabram?
perhaps millwood was the first "opportunity caught in flight" and tabram was an early "practice"?"

Possible? Of course, it is possible that Millwood was a victim of Jackīs. Iīd prefer not to try and estimate the probability of it, though.
As for the possibility that Jack killed Tabram, and had brought two blades along just to try them out, we are once again dealing with a possibility. In this case, though, I do not think it a very probable one. Somehow, I am having trouble imagining a killer with a plan bringing a pen-knife along to execute it. To me, that choice of weapon speaks of chance more than planning, something that tallies well with my earlier proposed suggestion that Tabram was perhaps not a planned deed.

The best,
Fisherman

[corey123]

Lynn,

Are you speaking of the supposed "Bayonett" wound or the wounds of the C5? For the former, it was noted in a certain ripperologist article, in the march 1996 issue, by Jon Ogan, that under some file(I forget which) the home office added a connatation that read "The wound which was first thought to be done by a bayonett". Interesting, as it seems the most logical conclusion would be that that particular wound was performed with the same knife, be it a pen or pocket, as the rest, first noted incorrectly by Dr.Killeen.

For the latter, I believe this, like Fishermen points out, was the only murder that was decided by chance, not premeditative.

Yours truly

[lynn cates]

long knife

Hello Corey. I was referring to the long knife which administered the largest wound. It may or may not have been a bayonet.

Cheers.
LC

[corey123]

I believe the deepest wound was only a couple of inches deep. No, I doubt any other knife was used but the pen-knife, as observed by the Home office.

[lynn cates]

Killeen

Hello Corey. Yet the coroner's take:

"[Killeen] did not think all the wounds were inflicted with the same instrument. The wounds generally might have been inflicted by a knife, but such an instrument could not have inflicted one of the wounds, which went through the chest-bone. His opinion was that one of the wounds was inflicted by some kind of dagger. . ."

I doubt a penknife capable of such penetration.

Cheers.
LC

[corey123]

Hello Lynn,

The key words "Think" and "Opinion". The opinion was changed obviously some time after that report, as noted by the Home Office, therfore, I find it safe enough to say that they were all performed with the same instrument. Also, the Sternum is almost less than an inch below the skin. I am sure you could penetrate the 'chest-bone' with a pocket knife.

[corey123]

Hello Lynn,


Here is the sentence from that article by Jon, titled Martha Tabram-the forgotten Ripper victim:

“some of the wounds are so narrow that a bayonet WAS FIRST suspected as the weapon. BUT bayonet wounds are quite UNMISTAKABLE”

This was transcribed not by the author, but by the Home Office.

[Sally]

1 or 2

And this is obviously of considerable importance - if only one weapon was used then the '2 men' theory starts to look a bit shaky. And if not two men, then why not Jack?

[Fisherman]

Sally:

"if only one weapon was used then the '2 men' theory starts to look a bit shaky."

Two weapons were used. There can be no reasonable doubt about it, and I am often baffled by the suggestion that this would not have been the case.

We know that Killeen was very clear on it, and he was the one who examined Tabram and performed the post-mortem. He would have known.

It was also he who suggested a pen-knife having been used at the lesser wounds. Now, letīs ask ourselves why he made that suggestion. Iīd say that two things must have governed it: The blade cannot have travelled very deep into Tabramīs body - for pen-knives do not have very long blades. Three, four, perhaps five inches at the most would be a reasonable suggestion.
Moreover - and more important - when the blade had travelled to the largest depth recorded in Tabrams body, IT WOULD STILL ONLY HAVE PORTRAYED A SMALL ENTRANCE HOLE! Why? Because if the hole was large, then why would Killeen have spoken of a pen-knife? Exactly, he wouldnīt.

So, that provides us with a blade that leaves smallish entrance holes and does not travel very deep.

And what about the wound to the sternum? Well, we may immediately conclude that the hole through the sternum was larger than the pen-knife holes. If not, we would not be having this discussion. So, is there any possibility that a blade that produces small holes in one place, suddenly produces a larger one in another? Yes, there is - it has been suggested numerous times that the sternum thrust could have lodged the blade in the bone, and that the killer needed to wiggle it to retrieve the knife. And that is a good suggestion - up til the time when we recall our friend, Dr Killeen. He did the autopsy, and we know that the large wound penetrated both sternum and heart (and we also know that it was described in an article as the one most fearful wound, by far the largest and deepest, if I recall correctly). It was said that this stab alone would have been enough to kill.

Now, where were we? Ah, yes - Killeen! He examined the heart and described it in his report. This was how: "The heart, which was rather fatty, was penetrated in one place, and that would be sufficient to cause death."
So, Killeen held that heart in his hands, and examined it carefully. Now, if the blade that penetrated sternum and heart had been identical with the pen-knife blade and wiggled very much, so as to produce the image of a much bigger blade - then it stands to reason that the heart would have portrayed this very cleary. Think of the blade as a pendulum, swinging from side to side inside her body - that would have produced a very messy and large hole in the heart, reasonably a larger one than the hole at the sternum, due to the pendulum effect. But Killeen only mentions what one would expect to find - the hear was penetrated in one place. And that penetration would have left a trace that corresponded with the sternum hole, or else we would have known it through Killeens words on the matter.

So can we please lay to rest, once and for all, the suggestion of just the one blade being used on Tabram? The human mind looks for simple answers, and thus it is very tempting to try and merge the two much differing blades into just one blade. But it cannot be done, and nor should it.

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

It is my opinion that the contrast between the 38 wounds and the 1 wound that pierced the breastbone was so great that the appearance was of two separate weapons. If the initial, killing wound was the severe one, nothing says that the tip of the same blade could not have been used in a lesser more exploratory way. Even if the deep wound didn't immediately kill Tabram, she would have been incapacitated enough for the killer to do the other wounds without resistance.

That is my take on it. Or, it may have been two weapons.

Mike the noncommittal

[harry]

Two accounts taken from an overseas country.Death in both accounts due to stab wounds penetrating the heart through the breastbone.Weapon in both cases described in medical evidence as penknife.One wound given as six inches long,and two inches wide,and requiring great force.