Did Jack kill more than three?

[Sam Flynn]

Considering the men in the personal circuits of Kelly and Stride (especially Kelly, who had two and Stride only Kidney) it is totally reckless investigating NOT to consider those aspects.

The problem is, Glenn, we only know of Michael Kidney in connection with Stride in 1888 and, as far as we know, Stride could have been conducting affairs with one or more others. If there were other men in her life, it's not hard to see why they didn't come forward and leave their names for us and posterity.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Mitch,

In the cases of most domestic murders, the neighbours or other people haven't heard a thing, so there have been no signs of 'domestic arguments' either, mostly because a murderer known to the victim has better opportunity to take the victim by surprise.
If the cries 'Oh murder' (which of course, as anything else, are under debate) actually came from Kelly, then we do have some indications of that the murder wasn't totally noiseless.

"Attributing any of the 5 victims Mc Naghton mentions as being victims of JTR to domestic killing without a shred of tangible evidence I would consider reckless investigating at the very least."

No, that is nonsense. Considering the men in the personal circuits of Kelly and Stride (especially Kelly, who had two and Stride only Kidney) it is totally reckless investigating NOT to consider those aspects. To canonize such victims at all in a 120 murder case where the perpetrator is not caught, now THAT is really reckless investigating and certainly not an approach that would be approved of in modern murder investigations. To keep an open mind and consider other possibilities is not.

All the best

[Mitch Rowe]

Glenn..I think Vigilantee statement is entirely appropriate. Sure ther have been domestic killings wich could even be worse. Its probably likely Elizabeth Shorts Murder was something of a one off domestic type killing. But it was rare in that Short probably didnt know the guy that killed her too well.
It is my contention that domestic killings usually start with domestic arguments. Ther is no evidence of that in the MJK Murder.
Attributing any of the 5 victims Mc Naghton mentions as being victims of JTR to domestic killing without a shred of tangible evidence I would consider reckless investigating at the very least.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Not sure quite what you mean by this, Vigilantee.

If Schwartz gave an accurate account, the man who shouted "Lipski" was the same man who attacked Stride, and thus the prime suspect in her murder.

Exactly, ben.
That is, if Schwartz's story - unverified and unsupported by other witnesses - is true to begin with and that is the crux.
To this day, I still can't seem to make up my mind about that one. I can't see any reason for him to make it up, but I have seen stranger occurrences.

All the best

[Ben]

The man who shouted Lipski is of course a red herring

Not sure quite what you mean by this, Vigilantee.

If Schwartz gave an accurate account, the man who shouted "Lipski" was the same man who attacked Stride, and thus the prime suspect in her murder.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

At the end of the day we have a horrific mutilation murder the sort that few would be psychologically capable of. If its NOT Jack then we have an extremely dangerous psycho who dissappears from history without a trace at the same time as Jack does. Lets not let 'logic' triumph over common sense guys.

Vigilantee,

Those are exactly the kind of erronous misconceptions that have clouded the discussions about the Mary Kelly case continously.
As has been said repeatedly on other threads, such domestic mutilation murders are not at very unusual - in fact, more people than we expect are 'psychologically capable' of more bizarre stuff than we realize, as several such crimes reveal. I have seen several many crime scene photos from domestic killings that are of the same magnitued as the Kelly murder and some that are even worse, perpetrated by people who have no prior criminal record and who certainly aren't any master criminals - only husbands or boyfriends who snaps during a psychotic episode or a fit of rage, jealousy.
To be frank, the crime scene photo from Miller's Court more accurately fits those I've seen from domestic mutilation murders rather than the works of serial killers - such very excessive mutilations can often be a result of personal emotional connection between perpetrator and victim, not the oppsoite, as many seems to think. We've had many such cases in Sweden and Scandinavia.

In your defense, I was equally naive in my perception about what seemingly ordinary people are able to do and not do before I sat down and started to study 'interpersonal' crimes and domestic homicide. Again, for English literature on the subject I recommed in this case former NYPD investigator Vernon J Geberth's manual Practical Homicide Investigation.

No offense, but I also have to protest against your view on the Stride murder as an 'expert' killing. Sure the killer managed to arrive and leave without being seen but the murder as such was certainly no expert murder and the wound in the throat made with less determination and skill than those on the other victims. Yes, it was deep enough on one side, but deep throat cuts were not unusual in Victorian London. On the same night as the double event - the same night (speaking of coincidences) - the gardener John Brown cut the throat of his wife Sarah and stabbed her in a rage of delirium and jealousy in their home in Westminster.
However, I agree that the 'coincidence' of the Eddowes murder discovered 45 minutes later the same night is a valid argument for including Stride in the series and in my view the only appealing aspect. That said, too many question marks remain during that murder in order to 'canonize' her or say anything with certainty.

That said, we will never know if the Kelly or Stride murder were Ripper killings or not, and they could very well be. But several circumstances surrounding them surely - in my view - must allow them to remain open to debate and not belong to a canon.
All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Now you mention it, Glenn's drawings in the latest edition of Ripperologist were quite superb, I thought.

Oh no, not those old scribblings...
Thanks anyway, guys.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Glenn,

This is what Bond wrote in his report on Kelly: "The face was gashed in all directions the nose, cheeks, eyebrows & ears being partly removed." (The Ultimate JtR Sourcebook, page 384 - paperback).

The best,
Frank

PS The cover of your book looks great, so I hope to be reading it sometime in the near future!

Yes, Frank. That's it, thanks. And I see that the eyebrows were mentioned, as I recalled.

P.S, I thought you couldn't read Swedish? And thanks for signing the guestbook on my website.

[Vigilantee]

Kelly

Her French tales sound like the typical stories of a poverty stricken fantasist surely?

At the end of the day we have a horrific mutilation murder the sort that few would be psychologically capable of. If its NOT Jack then we have an extremely dangerous psycho who dissappears from history without a trace at the same time as Jack does. Lets not let 'logic' triumph over common sense guys.

[Vigilantee]

Stride

Stride has to be included. If you look at the time frame concerned it was a very quick and expert killing (rapidly executed and escaped without a trace).
It would be crazy to think Stride was not a victim. The man who shouted Lipski is of course a red herring and could have had nothing to do with the murder.

[Suzi]

re: Dr Bond- He did say with ref to Buck's Row,Hanbury St,Berner's St and Mitre Sq that he had 'read the notes' before going on to make his report on 'mutilated remains of a woman found yesterday in a small room in Dorset St'. (A rather delightfully sad description)

We accept Bond's authority on Mary's wounds without a doubt because he was there- but the fact that he himself says 'In the four murders of which I have seen the notes only' he appears not to be able to make any definate opinion.

The fact that he refers to the body on the bed as being 'quite naked' however is something that I will never [IMHO] be swayed from! He was there ...and Gawd help him, saw it....It's a sheet!!!!)


Suzi x

[Suzi]

Hi chaps NOT another Kelly thread I promise!!!...but...

Bond says 'The face was gashed in all directions the nose the cheeks EYEBROWS (Yes Glenn!) and ears being partly removed'

Mind you with all that going on I doubt that the eyes/eyelids etc would have been left intact...I always wonder about Barnett's eyes/ears/hair quote on this one

To be honest looking at THE photograph there's nothing to be going on is there...a blood soaked matted pile of hair and a diagonally/conversely slashed face and that's before we start moving 'er down......

Yep Glenn...nice drawings

[Sam Flynn]

PS The cover of your book looks great, so I hope to be reading it sometime in the near future!

Now you mention it, Glenn's drawings in the latest edition of Ripperologist were quite superb, I thought.

[FrankO]

Hi Glenn,

To be honest, Frank, I don't recall at this very moment what Bond says about the eyelids (I know I went over every medical detail regarding Kelly when I wrote that chapter for the book but my memory fails me), but you're probably right since I don't remember them being mentioned. I do remember that there was a mention about the eyebrows being cut away, however.

This is what Bond wrote in his report on Kelly: "The face was gashed in all directions the nose, cheeks, eyebrows & ears being partly removed." (The Ultimate JtR Sourcebook, page 384 - paperback).

The best,
Frank

PS The cover of your book looks great, so I hope to be reading it sometime in the near future!

[CitizenX]

I would wildly guess

Tabram
Nicholls
Chapman
Eddowes
Kelly (maybe)

I think it would be very difficult to exclude any murder of a prostitute, on the street from late 1887 thru till mid 1889 which is why the police probably added Stride into the mix.

People sometimes tend to "over cook the stew" and try and make connections between the victims that dont exist or were like the murders themselves..random.

If you forget the more detailed "evidence" such as position of body, ages, type of mutilations, moon crossing saturn etc and stick with general facts you end up with.

they were all female.
Prostitutes.
Murdered at random.
Killed probably by a single killer.
Killed with a knife.
Killed quickly, no abduction or torture.
Extreme violence
No attempt was made to hide or dispose of the body.
Killed early morning.
Killed within a very small location.
Aged between 25 and 50 (meaning they were woman, NOT children, girls or old ladies)
Killed at weekends or public holidays.

Murder of women in England at the end on the 19th century was the same then as now, most likely to have been carried out by somebody they knew in a domestic situation. Random murder of woman on the streets was very rare. Count the number of random murders of women that fit the general profile in the years previous to and after 1888 and theres not many. But in this 8-10 month period there was a unaccounted for murder spree. This is without including the torso murderer who worked this time too.

This is why it was so terrifying for people at the time. They were used to violence and murder but not of this type and scale.

In my opinion Tabram is a more likely victim than Kelly as Kelly doesnt quite fit into the general profile

Kevin