Did Jack kill more than three?

[Doctor X]

I assume that comment is to me Dr X, and no im not judging anyone on myself i am judging them on what they themselves say. . . .

No, you are not.

*Steps over the strawmen*

--J.D.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

However, he had enough of a grip to convince a prostitute to take him. That requires too much rationality, even for drunk prostitutes.

Well, that doesn't really require rocket science personality since prostitutes in these areas pretty much threw themselves at you and were pestering you. He didn't really have to put down a lot of work effort or thought process into it.

And for the record, I don't believe he 'planned' the attacks. I agree with the FBI (for once) that the murders were impulsive acts and that he carried knives on him anyway for self-protection or otjher reasons (woring tools etc), not necessarily to commit murder. But again, who knows?

So, J.D., any more inputs or comments regarding the numbers of victims before we draw this psychological discussion even more far off track from the subject of this thread than we already have?

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

So when did you guys decide to hijack this thread and turn it into a debate about Jacks mental state rather than whether he had 3 victims or more??

Point taken, but as you know subjects have a tendency to temprarily turn into other subjects simply because you can't isolate them from one another in sheer prusm. But I agree with you.

However, you are free to add your inputs on the subject of the number of victims - so far I haven't seen you contribute to it that extensively (apart from stating the obvious cliché 'we will never know' - heck, that never crossed my mind...), while I myself have written a number of posts on that particular issue on this thread already before the psychological discussion began.

All the best

[jc007]

I assume that comment is to me Dr X, and no im not judging anyone on myself i am judging them on what they themselves say and how they display themselves in a public forum. And besides thier actions speak for themselves.

[Doctor X]

Do not judge others by your own standards.

--J.D.

[jc007]

And just to add my opinion into the mix, im not going to be so bold as most of you and think i know better than the people who actually investigated the case properly 120 years ago and make speculative remarks thinking i'm actually right, im just going to say thats really its impossible to know, he could of very well of had 3 victims or very well of had more, and in all honesty no one knows and know one ever will. Although im sure some of you have tickets on yourselves and believe your right regardless of the lack of evidence.

[Doctor X]

I am sorry, but I didn't understand a word of that.

Basically that the symptoms of schizophrenia fluctuate--worsen, improve, worsen, improve--over time with the trend to overall worse.

. . . thus has to be considered irrational in that aspect - is in fact the viewpoint of FBI and some others in the field. I don't regard that as a religion, however, but to me personally it makes sense.

I think for someone who does not plan at all who just "attacks" . . . sure. It is more "organized" to be able to drive your victim to your home, get them drugged up, then kill them. However, it seems to me that Jack simply used what worked very effectively. That is rational. He also did not have a car. . . .

In addition, as far as the crime scenes are concerned, we have no evidence of that he was the one who took them there.

Fair enough and good point. However, he had enough of a grip to convince a prostitute to take him. That requires too much rationality, even for drunk prostitutes.

Understood your opinion on the graffito and letters. Who knows?

--J.D.

[jc007]

So when did you guys decide to hijack this thread and turn it into a debate about Jacks mental state rather than whether he had 3 victims or more??

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi J.D.

It is a degenerative disease with regards to symptoms with a fluctuating course.

I am sorry, but I didn't understand a word of that. Nor do I understand the point of bringing in 'floridly psychotic' into the matter. As I said people like Hadden Clark (as well as a couple of Scandinavian serial killers) had earlier been diagnosed with paranoid schizofrenia (with no type spcified) - and paranoid schizofrenia was what we were talking about and that is as they are referred to, not anything else. Sorry, but you have lost me here.

I would not characterize them as such. He got his victim to a place of his convenience. Then he attacked, and a "blitz-style" proves quite effective and, frankly, rational. It worked.

Well, don't take my word for it, because the idea that the blitz-style attacks - as well as he was an enormous risk-taker, driven to commit the acts during such diffcult circumstances and thus has to be considered irrational in that aspect - is in fact the viewpoint of FBI and some others in the field. I don't regard that as a religion, however, but to me personally it makes sense.

In addition, as far as the crime scenes are concerned, we have no evidence of that he was the one who took them there. Again, this is a matter which has been debated to death and no one seems to agree on it. My personal view, however, based on sociohistorical studies of how prostitutes in those days operated, is that it might have been the opposite, namely that it was the prostitutes who chose the places, since prostitutes generally had their preferred spots and also knows the police beats to some extent. Many of the murder spots, like Mitre Square and the Hanbury Street yard, were also considered well known prostitute hang-outs.
In other words - if so, they did the job for him. But again - like everything else, this is a matter of debate.

As for the graffitto, I have never considered that to be the work of the Ripper and for several reasons, and I see it as unrelated to the apron. Some of the letters, however, are a more difficult and complex area, but since many of them seems to copy each other and don't seem to reveal any information besides what you could access by reading the papers, I have serious doubts regarding all of them. But of course nothing is written in stone and this is all personal opinons.

All the best

[Doctor X]

I have absolutely no idea what a 'florid' psychotic is, . . .

A person in florid psychosis cannot recognize reality despite evidence. The symptoms are legion; I can specify if necessary. The point is that such a person does not handle tasks very well such are intentionally trying to distract the authorities with graffito, chatting up a prostitute, et cetera.

. . . but I do know that Hadden Clark was diagnosed with paranoid schizofrenia long before he started his murder rampage.

It is a degenerative disease with regards to symptoms with a fluctuating course.

We also have several examples of such serial murderers who to display signs of paranoid schizofrenia (and with medical records to support it) but who still manages to keep on killing and to avoid the law for longer periods of time.

They were not, as above, floridly psychotic.

Again, to expect every paranoid schizofrenic (who don't take their medication) to act like someone like Kosminski - and to not possess any rational traits - is a misconception and a cartoon.

It would be if I suggested such an expectation. However, Kosminski fits a schizophrenic.

I was in fact quite clear on the matter, that psychotic/schizofrenic serial kilelrs are very rare and even those few who exists should be looked upon very carefully.

Indeed, that part of the discussion dealt more with Vigilantee's claim that all "cold blooded killers" are "psychopaths."

David Cohen is researcher Martin Fido's suspect.

Thanks! I will look into him.

The organized features lay in his ability to leave the crime scenes unseen, the methodical way the murders were committed and his ability to not leave the murder weapon behind on the crime scene.

Not mention learn from experience. Strangulation proved unnecessary if you simply severe the jugular, avoiding blood, figuring out how to take the uterus and how to deal with the umbilicus when opening the abdomen, et cetera.

The irrational part lay in his blitz-style attack. . . .

I would not characterize them as such. He got his victim to a place of his convenience. Then he attacked, and a "blitz-style" proves quite effective and, frankly, rational. It worked.

But all this is of course a matter of debate and subject to speculation. But I agree that he displays a large number of organized traits.

Exactly.

No, I don't believe for a moment that he wrote the graffitto. Nor any of the letters.

Interesting. I go back and forth on the graffito--what I "think"--and I tend to go against the Lusk letter based on the sort of stuff I blathered on that thread. I tend to go against any of the letters . . . but it is a "lean" rather than a "conviction."

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[FrankO]

Brief intermezzo

P.S, I thought you couldn't read Swedish?

When I squint, some words look Dutch.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

J.D.,

A very interesting post.
Although we've agreed to not indulge too deeply in this subject on this thread, let me just retort.

Assuming he was appropriately diagnosed rather than merely labeled as Vigilantee does, was he floridly psychotic?

I have absolutely no idea what a 'florid' psychotic is, but I do know that Hadden Clark was diagnosed with paranoid schizofrenia long before he started his murder rampage. So, it wasn't something that was done in connection with his trial in order to - as one otherwise can expect - avoid a guilty verdict. We also have several examples of such serial murderers who to display signs of paranoid schizofrenia (and with medical records to support it) but who still manages to keep on killing and to avoid the law for longer periods of time.
Again, to expect every paranoid schizofrenic (who don't take their medication) to act like someone like Kosminski - and to not possess any rational traits - is a misconception and a cartoon. As you yourself say, schizofrenia is a wide range of defects and shouldn't be subject to generalisation especially not when we have facts and crimes who proves otherwise.

Even so, serial killers such as Bundy, Gacey, and even Dahlmer did not demonstrate elements of schizophrenia.?

That's absolutely correct and I never said they did. I was in fact quite clear on the matter, that psychotic/schizofrenic serial kilelrs are very rare and even those few who exists should be looked upon very carefully.

David Cohen I would have to look up?

David Cohen is researcher Martin Fido's suspect. You can get a quick summary of the quite complex theory here, in a section I compiled for Casebook:

http://www.casebook.org/suspects/davidcohen.html

I don't necessarily support Cohen myself as a suspect, it was just something I did to help Stephen out and no one else wanted to do it.

...since he got clean away, he was rather organized. If you believe he wrote the graffito, he had the presence of mind to leave a "clue," write the graffito, and move on?

Well, he was rational in some aspects but perhaps irrational in others.
The organized features lay in his ability to leave the crime scenes unseen, the methodical way the murders were committed and his ability to not leave the murder weapon behind on the crime scene. The irrational part lay in his blitz-style attack (most likely in order to avoid as much interaction with his victms as possible) and that the nature of the bizarre mutilations more likely resembles those of a 'disorganized' murderer than the opposite. But all this is of course a matter of debate and subject to speculation. But I agree that he displays a large number of organized traits.

No, I don't believe for a moment that he wrote the graffitto. Nor any of the letters.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

In addition, Vigilantee,

Research and studying of peripheral crimes and occurrences is vtial for the study of the Ripper.

When I first started out on these Boards after having been interested in the Ripper since the late 80s (although very superficially up till about 2002, when I became more seriously involved), I was a very firm and aggressive defender of the Canonical Five (macnaghten Five) and of Stride and Kelly as Ripper victms.

Today - after having studied a large number of domestic crimes in both Britain, my home country Sweden and other Scandinavian countries, and how serial killers at large influences the the investigation of such murders - I can only admit that my early views on this were questionable. needless to say, I had to reevaluate a lot of things I had previously believed in. It was a shock and a bit of a blow, but it was necessary. It forced me to look upon the Ripper murders from other angles, and that is why I do NOT support any canon in the Ripper context, and certainly not the Macnaghten Five.

All the best

[Doctor X]

That is a bit of a myth, and we have cases like Hadden Clark to prove it. Hadden Clark was a disagnosed paranoid schizofrenic. . . .

Assuming he was appropriately diagnosed rather than merely labeled as Vigilantee does, was he floridly psychotic?

Schizophrenia is a condition with a wide range of defect in cognitive processing of sensory input. What you describe is not floridly psychotic. In fact, as you state:

. . . that are very rational in the middle of all irrationality. . . .

there are fluctuations. Even so, serial killers such as Bundy, Gacey, and even Dahlmer did not demonstrate elements of schizophrenia.

It is a mistake to think that paranoid schizofrenics are dumbasses. . . .

I am unaware of where I rendered that characterization.

Paranoid schizofrenics do NOT necessarily mean rambling lunatics like Kosminski. . . .

Actually, Kosminski is very suggestive of an untreated schizophrenic. Given that there were no treatments for schizophrenia other than support. David Cohen I would have to look up.

As for myself, I don't have a clue about which type Jack the Ripper was, since I believe we simply have to little information, and psychology is complex even in modern cases.

To which I would totally agree. I shared your criticism of attempting to distill Jack into a diagnosis such as "psychotic." I also disagree with the label of "disorganized"--if anything Jack seems quite organized. Granted, that may be a bit of retrojected semantics--since he got clean away, he was rather organized. If you believe he wrote the graffito, he had the presence of mind to leave a "clue," write the graffito, and move on.

However, I don't think we should turn this thread into a psychological debate thread - I believe there are other threads on that subject.

I agree again. This is why I wanted to dispense with the myth that mental illness is a myth. Mass murderers such as a Saddam Hussein, Stalin, Pol Pot, Gary Glitter do not have to be barking mad--psychotic--they can be very organized and rational. I think in order to deal with evil or those who simply do not care about others, many like to toss them into the bucket of "crazy." Jack may very well be like that.

Or . . . he may not. . . .

--J.D.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I disagree on just about everything you said actually, yes their were domestic murders and some were bloody, but we are not talking about domestic murders. You've just taken the Kelly killing out of the context of the Ripper murders and the very definite pattern it fits into and declared it a domestic killing. So ur not comparing like with like.

I doubt if you can generalise about any type of killing actually, they are all relatively unique, but have to be taken in context.

No, it's actually you who are taking the Kelly murder out of context because you completely fail to recognise the impact the murders had on the general public through the press reports. A quick look at the hundreds of so called Ripper letters confirms how the murders had acted as catalyst for seeminly ordinary and respectable people to express their morbid fantasies,adn some of them are VERY nasty even though they're pranks.
You must view every domestic or street murder during the autumn of 1888 with this context in consideration.

All the best