Subdued or Sleeping?

[Bridewell]

I've given a great deal of thought, like everyone else, to the method used by JtR to subdue his victims & there certainly seem to be a lot of threads devoted to the subject.

As most of the canonical murders (and others) were (or could have been) committed during the small hours when the human body is at its lowest ebb, perhaps they did not need subduing at all.

Polly Nichols had no doss money & may have had no prospect of getting any.

Annie Chapman was in desperately poor health & likewise had no doss money.

Kate Eddowes had just been released from police custody and was probably penniless also.

Perhaps all three, & MJK, were killed in their sleep. (There is some reason to believe that MJK may have been thus disturbed)

Liz Stride wouldn't fit, but the others could have reached the point where they gave up trying to raise the rent and just laid down to sleep at a convenient location. The spot between the steps and the fence in the back yard of 29, Hanbury Street would be sheltered from the wind, the corner of Mitre Square likewise. They would also have been sites which JtR might have visited to urinate.

A sleeping victim does not have to be subdued and can be killed before she has chance to react.

I'm far from convinced that the victims were asleep btw, but I thought it a topic worthy of consideration.

[The Grave Maurice]

Sleeping, eh? That's an interesting theory, Bridewell. I see a couple of problems. For example, Eddowes would have had to leave the man with whom she was seen speaking at the end of Church Passage, rush into Mitre Square, fall asleep, and have Jack stumble upon her, all within about ten minutes. And I suspect that Chapman would have chosen the stairway of 29 Hanbury for a kip (as others apparently frequently did) rather than the backyard.

Still, you've raised a new idea that is worth considering. Well done.

[lynn cates]

clever

Hello Bridewell, Ken. This might make the facial bruises on Polly and Annie redundant. It might also make their strangulation unnecessary.

Still, a clever idea.

Cheers.
LC

[The Grave Maurice]

Hi Lynn,

Bridewell's theory still might work for Polly. She had the fairly long walk from Osborn Street to Buck's Row and we're told that, even before that, she was three sheets to the wind. Being tired and drunk, the shelter provided by the gate entrance might have been enough to make her select it as a suitable location for a nap. Her bruising could be accounted for by JtR grasping her face while making the neck cuts.

[K-453]

Hmm, the floor wasn't very inviting, cold and wet. Let's not forget the bad weather during that autumn.
Cowering in a corner and leaning to a fence or wall, or sitting on some steps, and then dozing a bit, might have worked.

Leaves it to Jack to ferret out sleeping women in dark corners.

Maybe they were not sleeping, but sleepy, and therefore less able to fight.

[The Grave Maurice]

As you say, K, the theory has difficulties, but it's still novel. BTW, it wasn't raining on the night of the Nichols' murder and, while it was a cool August, it wasn't cold enough to discourage anyone who was used to sleeping rough.

[K-453]

There was a heavy thunderstorm on August 30th and afterwards showers of rain.

[The Grave Maurice]

Really? I was going by the source that I always use for the weather: p. 474 of Jakubowski & Braund's The Mammoth Book of JtR which says: "...August 30-31, 1888... Partly cloudy but dry and becoming fine during the night." What source are you using?

[lynn cates]

OK

Hello Ken. Yes, that could certainly be the case. Still, it seems pointless to first strangle her.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

And just to clarify things even more....

30 August Thursday
Max. 64.7 degrees F.
Min. 56.8 degrees F.
Fine & generally bright morning; thunder storm, 2 - 3P.M.; "showery" after .

31 August Friday
Max. 63.9 degrees F.
Min. 46.7 degrees F.
Bright & fine throughout but cool

Source.

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/weather.html

Regards, Jon S.

[curious]

I've given a great deal of thought, like everyone else, to the method used by JtR to subdue his victims & there certainly seem to be a lot of threads devoted to the subject.

As most of the canonical murders (and others) were (or could have been) committed during the small hours when the human body is at its lowest ebb, perhaps they did not need subduing at all.

Polly Nichols had no doss money & may have had no prospect of getting any.

Annie Chapman was in desperately poor health & likewise had no doss money.

Kate Eddowes had just been released from police custody and was probably penniless also.

Perhaps all three, & MJK, were killed in their sleep. (There is some reason to believe that MJK may have been thus disturbed)

Liz Stride wouldn't fit, but the others could have reached the point where they gave up trying to raise the rent and just laid down to sleep at a convenient location. The spot between the steps and the fence in the back yard of 29, Hanbury Street would be sheltered from the wind, the corner of Mitre Square likewise. They would also have been sites which JtR might have visited to urinate.

A sleeping victim does not have to be subdued and can be killed before she has chance to react.

I'm far from convinced that the victims were asleep btw, but I thought it a topic worthy of consideration.

Hello, Bridewell,
Count yourself lucky to be receiving better treatment with this theory than I did sometime back when I was considering the possibility of the women being asleep when JtR encountered them. That would easily account for no one hearing anything.

They were sleeping, he straddled the women and strangled them until they were unconscious, which was just a prelim to slashing their throats and his other work. (By the way, has anyone ever figured out the round bruises below the women's collarbones?)

I considered that perhaps Tabrum was sleeping on the landing at George Yard.

Nichols had perhaps passed out in Bucks Row.

Most of the time I don't consider Stride a JtR victim and certainly if the women were asleep, that would further discount her being killed by the same hand.

Eddowes could have gone into the darkest corner of Mitre Square and been sleeping and therefore not have been the woman seen by Lawende and company.

Kelly could have been sleeping in her bed -- there was a whole thread that considered that possibility, which is what started me thinking about the possibility with the other women.

But Chapman was and is where I have the biggest problem. I believe she knew the house at 29 Hanbury and could have gone there to sleep in the hallway. However, I don't see her sleeping outside when people did actually sleep inside there on the steps.

I abandoned the sleeping idea largely because I can't make it work for Chapman.

[Bridewell]

I Agree

Hello, Bridewell,
Count yourself lucky to be receiving better treatment with this theory than I did sometime back when I was considering the possibility of the women being asleep when JtR encountered them. That would easily account for no one hearing anything.


Eddowes could have gone into the darkest corner of Mitre Square and been sleeping and therefore not have been the woman seen by Lawende and company.

But Chapman was and is where I have the biggest problem. I believe she knew the house at 29 Hanbury and could have gone there to sleep in the hallway. However, I don't see her sleeping outside when people did actually sleep inside there on the steps.

I abandoned the sleeping idea largely because I can't make it work for Chapman.

You've made the point I was going to make vis-a-vis Eddowes. Lawende's identification would probably have to be mistaken and, to be honest, I don't think it was. The same would need to be the case with Mrs Long & Chapman, although I don't think the fact that she didn't use the stairs is insurmountable. She was in desperately poor health & probably, therefore, in desperate need of sleep. The stairs would have been more comfortable, but the back yard would have lessened the likelihood of her being disturbed; it would also have given her (I think) access to a privy if needed.

On the balance of probabilities, I don't think the victims (except perhaps Kelly) were asleep, but I don't think the possibility can be totally discounted.

Regards, Bridwell.

[curious]

You've made the point I was going to make vis-a-vis Eddowes. Lawende's identification would probably have to be mistaken and, to be honest, I don't think it was. The same would need to be the case with Mrs Long & Chapman, although I don't think the fact that she didn't use the stairs is insurmountable. She was in desperately poor health & probably, therefore, in desperate need of sleep. The stairs would have been more comfortable, but the back yard would have lessened the likelihood of her being disturbed; it would also have given her (I think) access to a privy if needed.

On the balance of probabilities, I don't think the victims (except perhaps Kelly) were asleep, but I don't think the possibility can be totally discounted.

Regards, Bridwell.

If Chapman went to 29 Hanbury to rest because she knew the house, she would still have access to the privy. It was supposed to have been quite cold that night (the excuse people use for the rapid onset of rigor mortis), so I don't believe Chapman would have slept outdoors.

I was exploring the sleeping angle because of the discussion that the Miller's Court victim was asleep made me ask IF IT WERE THE SAME KILLER, would he not have used the same sleeping angle before on the other victims? Would that not make sense?


I agree with you that the only victim who was sleeping was the one in Miller's Court.

[The Grave Maurice]

I think you've arrived at the most reasonable conclusion, Bridewell. I, too, am unwilling to give up Lawende's description of the man he saw with Eddowes. Besides, if Eddowes was so tuckered out that she could only make it to Mitre Square before needing to sleep, why didn't she just stay in her cell at the Bishopsgate cop shop? As for Chapman, she was going to be disturbed no matter where she slept at number 29 (there were, what was it, 16 or so people in the house, all of whom would have needed to use the privy that morning and, therefore, seen her) so she might as well have slept on the (relatively) warmer stairway.

I must have missed your original formulation of the sleep theory, Curious. Sorry it received a rough reception.

[curious]

I think you've arrived at the most reasonable conclusion, Bridewell. I, too, am unwilling to give up Lawende's description of the man he saw with Eddowes. Besides, if Eddowes was so tuckered out that she could only make it to Mitre Square before needing to sleep, why didn't she just stay in her cell at the Bishopsgate cop shop? As for Chapman, she was going to be disturbed no matter where she slept at number 29 (there were, what was it, 16 or so people in the house, all of whom would have needed to use the privy that morning and, therefore, seen her) so she might as well have slept on the (relatively) warmer stairway.

I must have missed your original formulation of the sleep theory, Curious. Sorry it received a rough reception.

Thanks, GM, and that's ok. I think it was in the middle of another discussion, it wasn't a separate thread. I had contacted someone privately to discuss it. Didn't mean to make it public, since there is so much I don't know, but well, the discussion came up and I mentioned the "wonder if it is possible" . . .

It was simply an idea that hit me and I was looking at and considering to see if maybe it would be a possibility.

No one else could see any possibility for it. I fear that for one or two, I still do think the possibility exists -- nothing more than that. not really a likelihood, just a possibility.

The problem is that I am trying to see something that either ties all five together, or puts two definitely or more definitely together, or something that definitely cuts one or more of the murders loose from the others. . .

Thanks, again.