Double Event Timeline

[Cogidubnus]

Just as well they're not susurrating too!

D

[lynn cates]

alliterate man

Hello Dave. Well, if you want alliteration, "Shintoists don't come shattering sheet glass and shouting slogans." (heh-heh)

"I expect the whole of Whitechapel had been discussing the WCM. . ."

Likely true 3 weeks before; not so much at the time.

" . . .but equally if the whole of Whitechapel had been so concerned every time a relative/friend was delayed . . ."

But for how long? A few hours? OK. But a few days?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Shinto Susurrations (Chinese whispers?)

Hi Lynn

"I expect the whole of Whitechapel had been discussing the WCM. . ."
Likely true 3 weeks before; not so much at the time.

I don't expect there was that much else to talk about Lynn...I think there'd be at least a general air of anticipation, fanned by the daily admonitions of the press.

"but equally if the whole of Whitechapel had been so concerned every time a relative/friend was delayed . . ."
But for how long? A few hours? OK. But a few days?

I think we underestimate the deep suspicion with which the police were held by many in the East End community...I think some would have swallowed hot gravel before voluntarily visiting a police station...and, thereagain, in an era before phones and ready communication I think people were far more inured to being apart than we are today...

I suppose it's also possible she'd gone walkabout before...

Dave

[lynn cates]

press

Hello Dave.

"I think there'd be at least a general air of anticipation, fanned by the daily admonitions of the press."

But the press had begun to cool as well.

Still wondering how the "broke" John Kelly survived on nothing whilst Kate was "seeking funds."

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

You may well have me there but...

Still wondering how the "broke" John Kelly survived on nothing whilst Kate was "seeking funds."

I always saw him as a Wilkins Micawber type of character!

Dave

[lynn cates]

Ebenezer Scrounge

Hello Dave. He may have been a professional scrounge. And the deputy, Wilkinson, may have given him credit, so why run off to Bermondsey at all?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

More Heep perhaps?

I don't think she was going to Bermondsey at all - I think she was going out to earn money the only way she knew how...but of course Kelly couldn't admit that to the police could he? Another possible factor in his delay in coming forward I'd say!

And if, as I would contend, he was at least partly living off Kate and her earnings, that's another good reason, in my book, to diminish suspicions of his killing her!

Possible too that Wilkinson could be advancing credit on the basis of Kate's earnings...we don't know though do we?

Always be 'umble mate!

Dave

[Bridewell]

I don't think she was going to Bermondsey at all - I think she was going out to earn money the only way she knew how

She could have been going to Bishopsgate Police Station to tell them who she believed the Ripper was. She could also have been trying to sell the information to a Fleet Street journalist. If she knew something (or even if she thought she did), it would be logical to try and get money on the strength of it.

If (monstrously big if this one) she was drinking in the same pub as JtR and started shouting the odds about knowing the killer's identity, what would his next move be? Follow her & try to find out what, if anything, she did know? If he saw her get arrested before he had a chance to speak to her, what would his Plan 'B' be? (alliteration again, Dave!). Wait around until she was released? Find out what, if anything, she'd told the cops? Kill her anyway, just to be on the safe side? There must be a chance, at least, that she was killed by someone who was waiting for her.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

She could have been going to Bishopsgate Police Station to tell them who she believed the Ripper was. She could also have been trying to sell the information to a Fleet Street journalist. If she knew something (or even if she thought she did), it would be logical to try and get money on the strength of it.

It's a theory....

If (monstrously big if this one) she was drinking in the same pub as JtR and started shouting the odds about knowing the killer's identity, what would his next move be? Follow her & try to find out what, if anything, she did know? If he saw her get arrested before he had a chance to speak to her, what would his Plan 'B' be? (alliteration again, Dave!). Wait around until she was released? Find out what, if anything, she'd told the cops? Kill her anyway, just to be on the safe side?

....but where and how does this fit in with the double event timeline?

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

Havisham

Hello Dave.

"I don't think she was going to Bermondsey at all - I think she was going out to earn money the only way she knew how...but of course Kelly couldn't admit that to the police could he?"

Very well. So then when she did not return Sunday morning surely he must have thought something wrong?

No, I don't like his story one bit. Looks sham to me.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

scenario

Hello Bridewell.

"She could also have been trying to sell the information to a Fleet Street journalist."

NOW you're talking. Right now, I am involved in investigating that very angle. There is a story about "a woman who died a strange and violent death" for spreading stories about one such journalist.

If you look at Kate and John's movements, they are congruent with a meeting--Kate shuttling back and forth to arrange terms. The one being blackmailed could then meet her in a pub and get her snoggered and in gaol. Perfect place to keep until that night. Then, get her to Mitre sq for her "payoff."

When she is found, "Ah! Mitre sq, know what she was about."

I daresay John got the message and blanched. That would account for his lies at inquest.

And this would also explain why her effects were ransacked.

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Not that there's evidence of Eddowes effects being ransack however,

Chapman.

Monty

[lynn cates]

Collard

Hello Neil. Well, as I recall, some of her effects were out on the ground. Inspector Collard listed 3 small buttons, one metal button, a thimble and (in my feeble mind most important) the tin with the pawn tickets.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Possibly; possibly not. In which case, why is Kate going there anyway?

If her daughter had moved Eddowes could still obtain the new address. People naturally leave a forwarding address and possibly, the only way she was going to find out the new address.

"Well, if she had given her correct name and address the police would have visited Flower and Dean St, just as they checked out the false address in Dorset St following the discovery that the murdered woman was the one they had in the Bishopsgate cell."

And John knew this? (By the way, 2 detectives went there, anyway.)

Yes, two detectives visited. They visited most of the common lodging houses that morning asking the keepers about any strangers, or lodgers who might have come in late. It had nothing to do with identifying the victim.

So he continues NOT to seek her whereabouts? No frantic search--especially as they had been discussing the WCM?

Well, he either probably had the gut feeling that she was the Mitre Sq victim and was building up the courage to identify her at the morgue, or she was going to return to Flower and Dean St at any moment. In the end he DID go to Bishopsgate Police station, his worries confirmed when he picked up a newspaper and recognised the name on the pawn ticket.

[lynn cates]

Giving her the slip.

Hello Jon.

"If her daughter had moved Eddowes could still obtain the new address. People naturally leave a forwarding address and possibly, the only way she was going to find out the new address."

Often that's true. But why did the daughter say she had left in the first place? What had she wished to preclude?

"Well, he either probably had the gut feeling that she was the Mitre Sq victim and was building up the courage to identify her at the morgue, or she was going to return to Flower and Dean St at any moment. In the end he DID go to Bishopsgate Police station, his worries confirmed when he picked up a newspaper and recognised the name on the pawn ticket."

Just out of curiousity, do you really believe this or do you merely offer an alternative possibility?

Cheers.
LC