Double Event Timeline

[Bridewell]

Which Bit?

Hello MB. Well, I can't speak for others, but my take is that a string of coincidences is assumed by a good many theorisers.

But that does not bother me HALF so much as John's testimony under oath. Read it lately?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Which part concerns you? I've just re-read it. He distances himself from any suggestion that he was living on her immoral earnings, for obvious reasons. He also distances himself from any suggestion that he knew who supplied her drinks on the day in question. The biggest issue, I guess, is the fact that they had lived together in the same house for seven years, but had spent the Friday night apart. An argument? A lover? Perhaps the people seen by Lawende were Kate and her new boyfriend - so maybe not her killer. Is this what you're thinking?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Have just done a bit of digging. I'd always thought that Kate & Conway split sometime in 1880. In the 1881 census, though, there's a Kate Conway, (38) Charwoman living with a Thomas Conway (46) Labourer at 71, Lower George Street, Chelsea. The children living with them are Thomas & George. He's shown as born in Ireland; she's shown as born in Staffordshire (which included Wolverhampton).

Can we say for sure that this is not them? If it is, there were clearly together rather later than previously thought.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

2/6

Hello Bridewell. Given the boots were popped on Friday night for 2/6, where did all the money go? Caviar and Dom Perignon?

Doss for 2 at Flower and Dean was 8d. Doss for 1, plus MECW, would have been 6d. Was there not even tuppence left from the 2/6?

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Doss for 2 at Flower and Dean was 8d. Doss for 1, plus MECW, would have been 6d. Was there not even tuppence left from the 2/6?

Didn`t they enjoy a slap up full English breakfast, as well as buying some sugar for their tea, and no doubt some baccy, booze and other every day bits and bobs.

[lynn cates]

drink

Hello Jon. If so, I presume they bought it Saturday morning. So on Friday night their coffers should have been full enough from the boot popping for an extra 2d.

Alcohol? When was that consumed?

1. Friday night AFTER the pawn shop visit and BEFORE Kate was supposed to be at MECW?

2. Friday night AFTER Kate left for MECW?

3. Saturday morning for breakfast AFTER the money was gone and Kate was heading to "Bermondsey" for more?

As I recall, when Kate left, she had no money at all.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

If so, I presume they bought it Saturday morning.

That`s what Kelly tells us in the inquest reports.

So on Friday night their coffers should have been full enough from the boot popping for an extra 2d.

Full enough for what ?

Alcohol? When was that consumed?

1. Friday night AFTER the pawn shop visit and BEFORE Kate was supposed to be at MECW?

2. Friday night AFTER Kate left for MECW?

They weren`t together on Friday night. They parted company at about four o`clock that afternoon.

3. Saturday morning for breakfast AFTER the money was gone and Kate was heading to "Bermondsey" for more?

Kelly: We had been drinking together out of the 2s 6d. All of it was spent in drink and food.
Kelly and Eddowes were together in Houndsditch till two pm.

As I recall, when Kate left, she had no money at all.

Yes, that`s what Kelly tells us?

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Jon

"That`s what Kelly tells us in the inquest reports."

Very well, let's proceed. They pop the boots Friday night (that's what the ticket said). Should have enough for 8d doss. After all, there would still be 1/10 left over. Surely enough for supper and breakfast?

"Full enough for what?"

An extra tuppence for doss.

"They weren`t together on Friday night. They parted company at about four o`clock that afternoon."

So when did they pop the boots? Before 4.00 I take it?

"Kelly: We had been drinking together out of the 2s 6d. All of it was spent in drink and food."

No problem with spending some on food (Friday night supper/Saturday morning breakfast). Drink? Well, not Saturday morning when observed by Wilkinson, surely? Nor yet Friday after 4.00--as they were not together. Then when?

"Kelly and Eddowes were together in Houndsditch till two pm."

So they went drinking after breakfast at Flower and Dean? Very well. They drank the remainder of the 2/6 and noticed it was all gone. So now she heads to Bermondsey to get more?

"As I recall, when Kate left, she had no money at all."

"Yes, that`s what Kelly tells us?"

Good, she is heading to Bermondsey. But she stops off in Aldgate, penniless, and some Good Samaritan stands her treat for 2-3 large glasses of gin (or ?)--enough to get roaring drunk, etc.

Whom was the Good Samaritan? Surely not another unfortunate?

Feel any strain yet?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

I was just thinking (always dangerous, I know!) if Kate pawned Kelly's new boots, she not only acquired 2/6d, but also severely curtailed her man's movements as well. I can't imagine that Kelly spent money on new boots unless the old ones were well and truly past it.

On another point, why did she promise to be back by 4 o'clock when (according to Kelly) she often came back much later?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

They pop the boots Friday night (that's what the ticket said). Should have enough for 8d doss. After all, there would still be 1/10 left over. Surely enough for supper and breakfast?

If they had taken a double bed for 8d it would have wiped them out financially. They had spent the previous night at the Casual Ward because they didn`t have enough money, and it seems that John earned his doss that Friday afternoon and could afford a bed, Kate didn`t and returned to the Casual Ward. Simples.

It wasn`t just supper and breakfast, they bought drink too, which was probably the influencing factor in their choice of Lodging House or Casual Ward for Kate.

"They weren`t together on Friday night. They parted company at about four o`clock that afternoon."

So when did they pop the boots? Before 4.00 I take it?

I guess so.

No problem with spending some on food (Friday night supper/Saturday morning breakfast). Drink? Well, not Saturday morning when observed by Wilkinson, surely?

Yes. I`ll quote John Kelly again:
We had been drinking together out of the 2s 6d. All of it was spent in drink and food."

Lynn, I believe the majority of the Spitalfields populace were permanently pissed, even the kids. When someone from 1888 Spitalfields describes someone as sober they really mean they weren`t staggering all over the place or slumped against a wall.

Nor yet Friday after 4.00--as they were not together. Then when?

When Eddowes returned to the Lodging House at 8.00am on Saturday morning and continued together till 2pm that afternoon.

So they went drinking after breakfast at Flower and Dean? Very well. They drank the remainder of the 2/6 and noticed it was all gone. So now she heads to Bermondsey to get more?

That`s what we`re told, nowt strange about that.

Good, she is heading to Bermondsey. But she stops off in Aldgate, penniless, and some Good Samaritan stands her treat for 2-3 large glasses of gin (or ?)--enough to get roaring drunk, etc.
Whom was the Good Samaritan? Surely not another unfortunate?

No, she parts company with Kelly at 2.00pm with Bermondsey in mind and the next we hear of her is 6 hours later when she is found paralytic on the High St.
We don`t know that she stopped off in Aldgate, only that the time she was found there at 8pm which was the usual time she returned to her lodgings, so she may have been working her way home when she was found.

Feel any strain yet?

Oh yes, Lynn.

[lynn cates]

strain

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"If they had taken a double bed for 8d it would have wiped them out financially. They had spent the previous night at the Casual Ward because they didn`t have enough money, and it seems that John earned his doss that Friday afternoon and could afford a bed, Kate didn`t and returned to the Casual Ward."

So an extra 2d would wipe them out? Just as you wish. So why did not John go with her to MECW? Would that not save another tuppence? (By the way, delighted that you do not offer the back dating of the boots.) thanks.

"I`ll quote John Kelly again:
We had been drinking together out of the 2s 6d. All of it was spent in drink and food.""

Very well. I'll waive the food business, but I need to ascertain when the drinking occurred.

Do you maintain that they were at the pub before Kate left for MECW? So this "spree" caused Kate to forgo Flower and Dean for lack of 2d of doss? I can live with that. But if ALL their money is spent that night (except his 4d F & D doss and her 2d MECW doss) surely they were out of luck for breakfast and a drink afterward?

Seriously, I'm NOT trying to be cute or petty here. I seek only a consistent timeline for events. But for the life of me, I cannot find one.

But at least, as you said, you too feel the strain in his testimony.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Bridewell

On another point, why did she promise to be back by 4 o'clock when (according to Kelly) she often came back much later?

I believe Kelly meant that she would normally return to the Lodging House at 8 or 9pm. But it had been over a year since she had visited her daughter, so a return time of 4 pm was given by Eddowes.
When she had not returned at 4pm Kelly assumed that she was staying over for Sunday at her daughter`s, until he later found out that she had been locked up.

[Cogidubnus]

Reboot

Could it be that when they popped the brand new boots they reinvested (at the hockshop or elsewhere) some of the money in a cheapo third hand pair of boots or shoes so Kelly could at least go about on foot?

Dave

[moonbegger]

So where did they have their breakfast , and who made it ? the dark clouds of confusion and conjecture descend . the spotlight is shining super bright , unfortunately not on the stage , its concentrated on the man 4th row from the back picking his nose albeit very interesting .

moonbegger

[lynn cates]

his story

Hello Jon.

"When she had not returned at 4pm Kelly assumed that she was staying over for Sunday at her daughter`s, until he later found out that she had been locked up."

OK, but he found out that she was locked up and he even mentioned that he thought she'd be out next day. When she was not, why did he not seek her?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

because he was pissed and sleeping in? (if so where did the money come from?)...

Dave