Double Event Timeline

[lynn cates]

Anarchists

Hello Malcolm. Are you saying he wished to bring opprobrium upon the Anarchists? Sir Charles thought that as well and I have done a good deal of research along those lines and would be delighted to discuss that.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. Are you saying he wished to bring opprobrium upon the Anarchists? Sir Charles thought that as well and I have done a good deal of research along those lines and would be delighted to discuss that.

Cheers.
LC

uuum...... aaah......uuum

i think he's targeting the Jewish race only, he's used Dutfields because it has a strong Jewish reputation.... his hated is the same as all the other Antisemetic idiots that were around at that time, loads of them.

but we dont know the nature of his hatred, it's probably paranoia, jealousy and the fact that they seem so successful in life, compared to everyone else, just think of Hitler and it'll be similar to this.... but with JTR there is also far more, he looks like he's also blaming them to distract the police away from him, especially with LA DE DA, that really is rediculous.

he might also be pretending to go insane with his last two victims, to deflect attention away from him as well...... he went OTT with MJK starting with Eddowes face, yes, i think he might have done this on purpose only, to distact attention away from him and to create maximum repulsion via the media..... and finally, no better than to blame a Jew.

the more hideous he can be/ the more insane/ the more the Jew..... the less that JTR looks like Joe Average, when he finally decides to go to the police. JTR could be distancing himself from the killer that he's portraying, so that when he goes to the police in a months time, he appears nothing like him.

uum i feel a bit odd, how strange..... he's masking why he's killing, why is he doing this! he's hiding what he's doing just in case someone that he knows, suddenly realises..... why the last two only, he's masking what he's doing because someone else has become suspicious of him recently, or someone else has told him to make more of a mess from now on.

right i have to go off line to think about this latest idea..... uum not sure, or maybe back track it slightly




.

[Rubyretro]

just think of Hitler and it'll be similar to this.... but with JTR there is also far more

.

you know, my mind has boggled so much recently that if the wind changes then I may well remain boggled for life.

[Malcolm X]

yes i like my theories, but i think this latest one has gone too far

i've got carried away talking about Stride too much, i get like this quite often, it's time to go now and chill out.

[lynn cates]

motive

Hello Malcolm. If I understand you properly, his motive completely changed by the "Double Event." For surely Polly and Annie were not anti-Semitic killings?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Hello C4. I was referring to the obvious signs of strangulation--tongue lacerated/protruding, swollen face, discolouration, etc.

If someone has another by the throat and then cuts it, I daresay the hands would clench.

Cheers.
LC

Hello LC,

May I refer you to http://www.forensicpathologyonline.c...04&Itemid=121? Ligature Strangulation. Interesting read, anyway, the whole thing.

I have taken the fact that you can see Liz´s pupils "staring" through the lids as a sign that her eyes were bulging, but have since seen the same thing (pupils seen through closed eyes) in another Swede - alive (as far as I could tell, difficult to to be sure with some Swedes) Just joking!

The is also a reference on the boards somewhere, think it is Rose Mylett, "none of the secondary signs of strangulation, such as clenched fists..."

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

strange

Hello C4. Thanks for that.

Do you have any particular views on Mylett? It is an exceeding strange case to be sure.

Cheers.
LC

[RedBundy13]

Hello Lynn and all,

Clenched hands? In both Stride and Eddowes. Sign of strangulation I have heard. So I think yes, they were both strangled first.

C4

Hey curious,
Im not so sure I agree with the clenched fists must have been strangled first theory. If it was me being stangled my first reaction would be to drop what ever was in my hands and try to pry my attackers hands or arm off of my neck.
Just picture the situation in your head, someone strangling another. Do you see that person trying to pry the attackers hands or arm off of their neck with clenched fists? Or do you see the victim grabbing at the attackers hand/arm with open hands, trying to scratch, pull, bend fingers or pry the perpetrator off of her?
While I can agree that clenched fists can be a secondary sign of stangleation, I believe that would be only towards the end, when the victim gives up and is about to go unconsious. Only then would they stop fighting and clench their fists. IMO
To me, the latter is the most likely scenario. Am I alone on that?

[RedBundy13]

JTR has made a real mess of his last victim, then he vanished and never killed again as JTR... why did he suddenly decide to toy with his knife starting with Eddowes. and why is MJK a careful and controlled mess... if such a thing can exist

With MJK maybe he felt more comfortable, like he didnt need to rush because there was little chance of him being interupted. He finally has a victim that he can do whatever he wants to with her. Hes in no hurry so he can litterly rip her to pieces and leave the most shocking crime scene the police had ever seen. His work/masterpiece complete, he can finally rest... for a while...

[lynn cates]

signs

Hello C4, Red. Clenched fists CAN be a sign of strangulation. However, there seem to be other possible causes besides that.

But I'm not so sure about protruding/lacerated tongues. Hence, my distinction.

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

Redbundy -as to the fist clenched around the cachous...

Maybe Liz didn't ever imagine that she was fighting for her life at the beginning of the attack ? She might have been attacked quite often in the past....very very recently by BS man ....

If she was someone practical, and the yard was pitch black, she might have had a psychological reflex not to drop the cachous, scatter them, and lose them all in the dark...at the start

As she died it translated itself to a physical reflex

[Bridewell]

What's The Risk?

JTR would worry about someone coming out yes and someone like him, entering the yard quickly, so realising this, JTR must have killed her lightning fast.... fact!

no point him chatting her up inside the yard first, just in case someone comes out and sees him chatting to her

Hi Malcolm.

Why would he mind someone seeing him chatting her up? As far as any casual observer is concerned he's just a punter chatting up a prostitute. If the "double event" is accepted as two murders by the same killer, you have to ask, for your point to be valid, why JtR was worried about being seen in Dutfields Yard, but not in Church Passage?

Cheers, Bridewell.

[Wickerman]

Hello C4, Red. Clenched fists CAN be a sign of strangulation. However, there seem to be other possible causes besides that.

Redbundy, Lynn.
As Lynn pointed out, clenched hands "can" be, but it is not a requirement, the reason being, the clenching, which is a tightening of the smaller muscles, is an involuntary spasm.

Certainly, as RB pointed out a victim is going to drop anything in her hands if the strangulation attack is not swift enough, but once she succumbs to the lack of oxygen the smaller muscles in the hands can cramp up thereby giving the appearance of a fist.

What I am not sure about is how swift the attack needs to be for someone to be taken so completely by surprise that they don't even drop whatever is in their grasp before the spasm takes over and clenches the fingers.
The murder of Stride comes to mind.

On the other hand, if the attack is slow she would drop whatever she is holding and try to remove the cord or fingers causing her the distress. Yet the clenching of the fingers is typically associated with a slow death, which makes the circumstances of Strides death all the more facinating.
Not that I am suggesting Stride was strangled.

Regards, Jon S.

[curious4]

Hey curious,
Im not so sure I agree with the clenched fists must have been strangled first theory. If it was me being stangled my first reaction would be to drop what ever was in my hands and try to pry my attackers hands or arm off of my neck.
Just picture the situation in your head, someone strangling another. Do you see that person trying to pry the attackers hands or arm off of their neck with clenched fists? Or do you see the victim grabbing at the attackers hand/arm with open hands, trying to scratch, pull, bend fingers or pry the perpetrator off of her?
While I can agree that clenched fists can be a secondary sign of stangleation, I believe that would be only towards the end, when the victim gives up and is about to go unconsious. Only then would they stop fighting and clench their fists. IMO
To me, the latter is the most likely scenario. Am I alone on that?

Hello Red,

In all the killings JTR seems to have subdued the women very quickly and efficiently. They would have lost consciouness very fast and possibly been paralysed with shock for a moment before they could react, after all, he must have been someone they had trusted - that would be all the time needed to get the victims where he wanted them. However he did it, it had to be very quick.

Cheers,
C4

[Malcolm X]

With MJK maybe he felt more comfortable, like he didnt need to rush because there was little chance of him being interupted. He finally has a victim that he can do whatever he wants to with her. Hes in no hurry so he can litterly rip her to pieces and leave the most shocking crime scene the police had ever seen. His work/masterpiece complete, he can finally rest... for a while...

hi

no you've totally missed what i was trying to say, let me put this another way with regards to time:-

why dont the first 2 victims have face mutilations compared to Eddowes, because Eddowes/ Stride are the worst for time, but Stride doesn't count.

i say no, i think JTR would have mutilated the faces of the first 2 as well, i think with the last two he's doing this on purpose to make himself look more revolting, to give himself more publicity, to make these murders infamous for ever, and to make ``a jewish killer`` look as evil as he can.

i think the real JTR is probably A.Chapman, with JTR also being a more ``normal street killer``, he fluctuates between these two types.

Eddowes and Kelly are different because he's raising his game for maximum publicity and antisemetism, he's only doing this temporarily, i think something happened in his life before Stride, that caused him to change tactics like this.

1..... before Stride we dont even see a hint of anti-semetism
2..... after Stride we do
3..... after Stride we see face mutilations and a massive increase in horror!

JTR has changed tactics before Stride, he has suddenly decided to target the Jews.

if we also say that the other murders before might be him as well, then he is quite content to just kill them with a knife...... you see no Anti-semetism and no face mutilations/ gutted either.

i think many might be missing how different the last 3 murders are, and how strongly linked they are to one person in particular.

you also see no anti-semetism/ graffiti after MJK, for the last few victims, so this points towards JTR backing off on purpose..... because he has to !