Ripper Anatomy Class

[Errata]

It is possible that the precipitous collapse of Stride could have been the result of left vagus bisection. The PM doesn’t provide such detail. Note too, that the pulmonary artery did not contain the frothy blood expected if air embolism had occurred – meaning that venous pressure may well have been increased. DG

I have also been reading a lot on the mechanics of manual and ligature strangling, and their seems to be a condition that is unusual but not unheard of. I think I read 1 in 1000 people have arteries that are not resistant to pressure, like hardened arteries, and then you can get bradycardia if you hit the right spot and they just drop dead. So her collapse I suppose could come from gripping her neck, or choking her without the use of the knife.

I think that severing the vagus and the carotid at the same time wouldn't allow enough time for the vagus to send the information to the heart in time to have in affect blood pressure in time to prevent any spurt. I could be wrong, but I think the blood pressure would have to be severely diminished, and I think that takes more time than lowering the blood pressure by bleeding out.

[Investigator]

Hi Frank, Errata is correct in saying there is a lag time (about 2 -3 seconds)before compensation kicks in. The initial spurt is with significant pressure behind it. Even if there had been immediate heart block, the elasticity of the arteries would still have produced a spurt as they reduced pressure. Many a time I've had one in the eye just by snipping between artery clamps, no heart pump behind it.
I suspect that Strides scarf may have acted as a temporary ligature to the vessels but alternatively she had been inclined with her neck towards the gutter. I'm not entirely convinced that her death was simply blood loss, even though Phillips indicates a large blood mass. I suspect cardiac arrest before losing sufficient blood volume, most of which lost by drainage. The PM report lacks detail to draw precise conclusions. Regards DG

[protohistorian]

pinchin neck wound

Described by Dr. Bond as," The neck had been divided by several jagged incisions at the bottom of the larynx,..." The larynx occupies a space between the C3 and C6 vertebra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larynx

This is most similar to the M5 neck wounds, and much farther down the neck than the other victims in the Macnaghten sequence.

Dave

[protohistorian]

last post

The last post is the whitehall mystery, not Pinchin. I am done for a while. Dave

[Errata]

Godspeed man. Well done.

[protohistorian]

Ada Wilson

In the following press report we learn certain things.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/east_london_advertiser/ela880331.html

1. she is alive
2. she communicates orally

Here is a diagram that shows structures I believe would preclude one or other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_laryngeal_nerve

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constrictores_pharyngis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truncus_Sympaticus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_carotid_artery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_nerve

[FrankO]

Hi Frank, Errata is correct in saying there is a lag time (about 2 -3 seconds)before compensation kicks in. The initial spurt is with significant pressure behind it. Even if there had been immediate heart block, the elasticity of the arteries would still have produced a spurt as they reduced pressure.

Hi Investigator (& Errata),

Thanks for your clear reply & your view on Stride, and sorry for not getting back to you any sooner. I have another question that I hope you can answer. Knowing what we know about the crime scenes, how would you explain the lack of evidence of arterial blood spray on any of the crime scenes, except for Kelly’s and perhaps that of Chapman?

All the best,
Frank

[protohistorian]

In the following press report we learn certain things.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/east_london_advertiser/ela880331.html

1. she is alive
2. she communicates orally

Here is a diagram that shows structures I believe would preclude one or other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_laryngeal_nerve

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constrictores_pharyngis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truncus_Sympaticus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_carotid_artery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_nerve

You can add the hypoglossal nerve to the no fly list. Dave

[Errata]

Hi Investigator (& Errata),

Thanks for your clear reply & your view on Stride, and sorry for not getting back to you any sooner. I have another question that I hope you can answer. Knowing what we know about the crime scenes, how would you explain the lack of evidence of arterial blood spray on any of the crime scenes, except for Kelly’s and perhaps that of Chapman?

All the best,
Frank

Well, I struggle with this one. The conventional wisdom is that they were strangled first. Once the heart stops, arterial spray is no longer a factor.

But then why bother cutting the throat? I can't imagine he was so concerned about arterial spray that he took precautions to prevent it. And strangulation has its own risks. If you are trying to deprive someone of air, they cannot scream, but they can and do put up one helluva fight. If you are cutting off the blood flow to the brain, it's faster, and there is little fight, but most strangulation methods do not cut off enough of the airway to prevent noise. Maybe not a full throated scream, but something about the level of moaning is totally possible. My stunt Ripper/ fiance put his arm around my throat in the typical stranglehold for a few seconds. I could make a fair amount of noise before seeing stars. Frog like sounds, but loud enough. Evidently the one arm choke hold does not particularly compress the trachea. It just shunts it to the side, curving it enough to make breathing difficult. I could wish he found that experience a little less cathartic.

So I don't know. I was toying with the idea of JtR twisting the victim's head towards him. It would compress the cut, and any residual spurt would go on him, which if he is wearing a dark wool jacket is unnoticeable. But that doesn't fit either. If there is no blood on the chest, they either have to have been on their backs or suspended upside down. It is entirely possibly that this guy was far more lucky than good.

[protohistorian]

Errata said,"It is entirely possibly that this guy was far more lucky than good."
That is the most profoundly accurate thing I have seen on these boards for awhile, nicely said. Dave

[Errata]

Described by Dr. Bond as," The neck had been divided by several jagged incisions at the bottom of the larynx,..." The larynx occupies a space between the C3 and C6 vertebra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larynx

This is most similar to the M5 neck wounds, and much farther down the neck than the other victims in the Macnaghten sequence.

Dave

What on earth is that under the back teeth? The thing that looks like a reversed vertebral spine? Is that the Hyoid?

And I checked on the pharynx for speech. If it is severed you lose all of your gutturals, so the letters n,g,k,y,h,x, and hard c are gone. You are also going to aspirate anything that comes from the nose or mouth. in which case a drink of water (often offered to those having trouble speaking) or a bloody nose can easily be fatal.

[protohistorian]

Notice the forshortening and x ray shadow of the bra clasps, it could be an external object, even on the other side of her head. Like I said, I took these images off the net so I do not rightly know. Maybe it's why she is at the doctors office. You gotta figure your gonna notice an object like that in your neck. Dave

[FrankO]

Hi Errata,

The conventional wisdom is that they were strangled first.

Even though that seems the best bet, it unfortunately isn't an established fact that they were. Only in Chapman's case the doctor who examined her gave it as his opinion that breathing had been interfered with prior to death.

But then why bother cutting the throat?

I can think of a couple of reasons. Perhaps he just wanted to be sure she was dead, while at the same time this way she would bleed out so that the mutilations wouldn't be that bloody.

I can't imagine he was so concerned about arterial spray that he took precautions to prevent it.

I can't either. I think he just wanted to see to it that he didn't get all covered in blood, which is why he seems to have cut her throat in such a way that, blood spray or not, the flow of blood would be directed away from him.

Evidently the one arm choke hold does not particularly compress the trachea.

Ah, but he had 2 arms & hands! It would have been easy to prevent her from screaming by putting his free hand over her mouth.

It is entirely possibly that this guy was far more lucky than good.

I don't doubt that luck was on his side, quite possibly even a great deal, but I don't think that he could have been just lucky at least 3 times in a row.

All the best,
Frank

[Errata]

Ah, but he had 2 arms & hands! It would have been easy to prevent her from screaming by putting his free hand over her mouth.

All the best,
Frank

He did indeed have two hands. The problem with putting your hand over someones mouth, assuming they don't bite the crap out of you, is that it doesn't work. It can prevent a person from shouting words, and it can limit the volume by closing the echo chamber of the mouth. But a person can still make a lot of noise, if not exactly scream bloody murder. I know. I am a little sister. I managed to alert my parents to my imminent murder every time.

I would think there would be a bit of facial trauma if he did that as well. You kind of have to either seize the lower jaw, which can crack teeth and dislocate the jaw, or overlap the nose. If you overlap the nose it probably goes quicker, but you'll probably break the nose. Especially if they fight at all. It's almost more important to keep the mouth covered than to keep the choke hold. Hmm.

It's not that I disagree with you, and, i totally know what you mean, but there is something almost funny about the thought of a guy who roots through intestines being put off by getting a little bloody. He's fine with intestines, fecal matter, bile, fat, urine, but god forbid blood sprays on him. Cause that's just gross.

[protohistorian]

Elizabeth Jackson

This is the Elizabeth Jackson injuries diagram. Bear with me, it may take more than 1 diagram. A very big shout out to Debra A. and her fine paper, to be found here. All citations of wound description are extracted from this document.

http://www.casebook.org/victims/jackson.html

Recovered 4 June 1889 ( in red) described as,"The limb was examined by Dr Kempster who declared it to be a portion of a human thigh from hip to knee;" No side is given so I have selected one.

and also,
"None of the press reports described exactly what was found within this parcel to draw these conclusions from, but according to the medical jurisprudence book ' A system of legal medicine' which contains details from some of Dr. Bond's cases, the contents it contained were flaps of abdominal skin and the uterus of the victim, complete with cord and placenta;
"The flaps of skin and subcutaneous tissue consisted of two long, irregular slips taken from the abdominal walls. The left piece included the umbilicus, the greater part of the mons veneris the left labium majus, and labium minus. The right piece included the rest of the mons veneris, the right labium majus and minus, and part of the skin of the right buttock. These flaps accurately fitted together in the mid-line, and laterally corresponded to the incisions in the lower pieces of the trunk. The skin was fair, and the mons veneris was covered with light sandy hair. The upper part of the vagina was attached to the uterus; both ovaries and broad ligaments were present, and the posterior wall of the bladder. The uterus had been opened on the left side by a vertical cut, six inches long, through the left wall. The organ was much dilated the vessels on the inner surface large and open and the mucus membrane swollen and softened. The uterus measured 10in. long by 7.5 in. wide. The circumference of the os externum was 4in….
....The cord measured 8in. and the distal ends showed a clean cut. The vessels contained fluid blood." "


June 6 (green) described as,"the upper part of a woman's trunk, probably a portion of other human remains found in the Thames." This wound is not indicated see below.

and also,"This latest find was the upper part of a woman's trunk, the arms had been taken off cleanly at the shoulder joints and the head separated from the body close to the shoulders. The chest had been cut down the centre in a similar fashion to the other portion of the trunk." I leave the cut on the chest to the viewers imagination.

June 7 ( in blue) described as,"A section of the lower right leg and foot"

and also, "The left leg and foot were found near Limehouse by a lighterman,..."

June 8th (in yellow) described as, "On Friday 8th June the left arm and hand turned up in the river Thames off Bankside."

June 9th (in pink) described as,"The right thigh was also found the same day in the garden of Sir Percy Shelley's Chelsea house,"

June 10th (in aqua) described as,"the buttocks and the bony pelvis, with all the organs missing, were picked up near Battersea" Notice these wounds would indicate front and back of the lower torso were separate.

and also,"On the 10th June the right arm and hand were found floating in the Thames off Newton's Wharf near Blackfriars Bridge."

This diagram is not inclusive of all the finds, I highly recommend reading the paper. Dave