Escalation: What would Jack do after Mary Kelly?

[John Wheat]

Abby, thank you for reply

As for the profile the one you've proposed is actually very much similar to FBI profile so it's quite reasonable. Although I wouldn't necessary assume that e.g. Ripper was a planner. I think that double event actually shows something opposite: he was very much prone to risk and compulsive. Actually killing and mutilating women in open spaces and frequented streets (even at night) is something very much risky. We tend to think that by finding victims just after murder was something which underlined his skills of evading capture and in my opinion it's quite the opposite. He was almost caught red handed couple of times - with Annie Chapman and Elisabeth Stride. Also he was seen with the victims. It shows that he is oblivious to risk.

But I would agree that he was street smart and knew the area very very well. That's why he was actually able to escape unnoticed.

Question of the William Bury case is interesting. It is true that he seems to be one of those who were caught in similar murder. But isn't that also the situation of Frederick Deeming? The reports suggest that he mutilated his wife after murder but it wasn't so elaborate as in MJK or Eddowes cases. She was killed indoors I pressume? I would think that someone who was a central figure of his rage would suffer much worse wounds. Also when he was caught he clearly denied his involvment in Ripper killings and for some reason police believed him. Was he actually living near the sites where murders took place?

Question of insanity remains open: i think you could be right that he wasn't insane in any way but on the other hand we see that many mutilators are actually very mentally ill: Chase, Gein, Mullin, Napper, Sutcliffe, Vacher. But it's all statistics and probability not certainty cause we have: Kemper, Dahmer, Cottingham and possibly many others who fit that description. By looking at his "work" in case of MJK I'm just more into "mentally ill" proposal. And still it doesn't have to mean that this insanity was clearly visible: he could look quite normal (as far as East End goes). With such victims: most of them homeless, old, sick, drunk - even if he was a creep they still would've gone with him. They had a lot of lunatics it seems at that period in the East End.

Bury never denied his involvement in the Ripper murders. He lived in Bow which neighbours Whitechapel. However at the time owned a horse and cart so could quite easily travel into Whitechapel.

Cheers John

[Lewis C]

As for the profile the one you've proposed is actually very much similar to FBI profile so it's quite reasonable. Although I wouldn't necessary assume that e.g. Ripper was a planner. I think that double event actually shows something opposite: he was very much prone to risk and compulsive. Actually killing and mutilating women in open spaces and frequented streets (even at night) is something very much risky. We tend to think that by finding victims just after murder was something which underlined his skills of evading capture and in my opinion it's quite the opposite. He was almost caught red handed couple of times - with Annie Chapman and Elisabeth Stride. Also he was seen with the victims. It shows that he is oblivious to risk.

I would say almost caught red handed with Chapman, and maybe with Stride. He may have already been gone by the time Diemschutz arrived. I think you could say maybe with Eddowes also. He may have still been in Mitre square when the first PC partially entered the square.

Question of the William Bury case is interesting. It is true that he seems to be one of those who were caught in similar murder. But isn't that also the situation of Frederick Deeming? The reports suggest that he mutilated his wife after murder but it wasn't so elaborate as in MJK or Eddowes cases. She was killed indoors I pressume? I would think that someone who was a central figure of his rage would suffer much worse wounds. Also when he was caught he clearly denied his involvment in Ripper killings and for some reason police believed him. Was he actually living near the sites where murders took place?

I don't remember reading anything about Deeming mutilating his victims. What can be said about him is that he strangled some victims and cut the throats of others, which are both things that the Ripper did.

[The Rookie Detective]

I would say almost caught red handed with Chapman, and maybe with Stride. He may have already been gone by the time Diemschutz arrived. I think you could say maybe with Eddowes also. He may have still been in Mitre square when the first PC partially entered the square.



I don't remember reading anything about Deeming mutilating his victims. What can be said about him is that he strangled some victims and cut the throats of others, which are both things that the Ripper did.

I guess the question is; what makes the Ripper the Ripper?

Post Mortem mutilation?
Strangulation?
Cutting throat?
Use of knife as weapon?

Deeming did 3 of those
Bury also did 3 of those

Deeming murdered 2 wives and his children

Bury murdered his wife

A person needs to gave murdered at least 3 people and to have committed murder on more than one occasion to be labelled a "Serial killer."

Bury doesn't make the cut when it comes to that...unless he was the Ripper of course.

If he wasn't the Ripper, then he was a domestic killer of his wife and nothing more.

The same goes for James Kelly, who even though he murdered his wife with a knife in a particularly grotesque manner, he didn't make the cut as a Serial Killer.

Only Deeming and Chapman were known Serial Killers.


The fact is that if Bury hadn't cut his wife post mortem, he would never have been considered in the first place.

Bury either did that because he was a Ripper fantasist and/or chose to try and mimic the Ripper by opting to cut Ellen post mortem OR he was the Ripper trying to leave us a clue as to his true identity.

[John Wheat]

I guess the question is; what makes the Ripper the Ripper?

Post Mortem mutilation?
Strangulation?
Cutting throat?
Use of knife as weapon?

Deeming did 3 of those
Bury also did 3 of those

Deeming murdered 2 wives and his children

Bury murdered his wife

A person needs to gave murdered at least 3 people and to have committed murder on more than one occasion to be labelled a "Serial killer."

Bury doesn't make the cut when it comes to that...unless he was the Ripper of course.

If he wasn't the Ripper, then he was a domestic killer of his wife and nothing more.

The same goes for James Kelly, who even though he murdered his wife with a knife in a particularly grotesque manner, he didn't make the cut as a Serial Killer.

Only Deeming and Chapman were known Serial Killers.


The fact is that if Bury hadn't cut his wife post mortem, he would never have been considered in the first place.

Bury either did that because he was a Ripper fantasist and/or chose to try and mimic the Ripper by opting to cut Ellen post mortem OR he was the Ripper trying to leave us a clue as to his true identity.

I favour Bury as the latter. It's important to note how rare post mortem mutilation actually is.

[The Baron]

Bury might have killed his wife because he confessed to this, but the evidence in this case is not conclusive, and probably he thought that he killed her because he was too drunk at the time and when he woke up she was dead.

Bury is not a proven murderer, the last I've heard he got the not guilty verdict.


The Baron

[Abby Normal]

Bury might have killed his wife because he confessed to this, but the evidence in this case is not conclusive, and probably he thought that he killed her because he was too drunk at the time and when he woke up she was dead.

Bury is not a proven murderer, the last I've heard he got the not guilty verdict.


The Baron

lol. bury was arrested, tried, convicted and hung for murdering his wife. he also confessed. hes a proven and admitted murderer.

[The Baron]

lol. bury was arrested, tried, convicted and hung for murdering his wife. he also confessed. hes a proven and admitted murderer.

Not beyond reasonable doubt, and the last trial demonstrated just that.



The Baron

[GBinOz]

Not beyond reasonable doubt, and the last trial demonstrated just that.



The Baron

No! He made a written confession to murdering his wife with the caveat that he had no previous intent.

[John Wheat]

Not beyond reasonable doubt, and the last trial demonstrated just that.



The Baron

Of course its beyond reasonable doubt.

[I1ariusz]

Bury never denied his involvement in the Ripper murders. He lived in Bow which neighbours Whitechapel. However at the time owned a horse and cart so could quite easily travel into Whitechapel.

Cheers John

I've read about this in Wiki article which seems quite detailed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Henry_Bury
There you can find:

...
The Courier alleged that Bury admitted to Lieutenant Parr that he was Jack the Ripper,[80] but Parr's version of the story says only that Bury said he was afraid he would be arrested as Jack the Ripper.[81] Bury denied any connection, despite making a full confession to his wife's murder. Nevertheless, the executioner James Berry promoted the idea that Bury was the Ripper.[68]

[I1ariusz]

I would say almost caught red handed with Chapman, and maybe with Stride. He may have already been gone by the time Diemschutz arrived. I think you could say maybe with Eddowes also. He may have still been in Mitre square when the first PC partially entered the square.

We have to keep in mind that with Stride we have witness who've seen the attack: Israel Schwartz. He's often called the best witness in the case. Possibly one who was involved in identification (we don't know for sure). Even if he wasn't able to identify the killer I think that we can almost be sure that he really was a witness to the Ripper attack.

[Lewis C]

We have to keep in mind that with Stride we have witness who've seen the attack: Israel Schwartz. He's often called the best witness in the case. Possibly one who was involved in identification (we don't know for sure). Even if he wasn't able to identify the killer I think that we can almost be sure that he really was a witness to the Ripper attack.

I think we can be almost sure that to the best of his ability, Schwartz was telling the truth. However, I think that BS man may or may not have been Stride's killer. And while I think that Stride was probably a Ripper murder, I wouldn't say that we can be almost sure that she was.

[Lewis C]

I guess the question is; what makes the Ripper the Ripper?

Post Mortem mutilation?
Strangulation?
Cutting throat?
Use of knife as weapon?

Deeming did 3 of those
Bury also did 3 of those

Deeming murdered 2 wives and his children

Bury murdered his wife

A person needs to gave murdered at least 3 people and to have committed murder on more than one occasion to be labelled a "Serial killer."

Bury doesn't make the cut when it comes to that...unless he was the Ripper of course.

If he wasn't the Ripper, then he was a domestic killer of his wife and nothing more.

The same goes for James Kelly, who even though he murdered his wife with a knife in a particularly grotesque manner, he didn't make the cut as a Serial Killer.

Only Deeming and Chapman were known Serial Killers.


The fact is that if Bury hadn't cut his wife post mortem, he would never have been considered in the first place.

Bury either did that because he was a Ripper fantasist and/or chose to try and mimic the Ripper by opting to cut Ellen post mortem OR he was the Ripper trying to leave us a clue as to his true identity.

I'd say that Bury mutilating his wife is more significant than that he didn't cut her throat. Also, Bury was definitely in the London area at the time of the C5 murders, while Deeming may or may not have been. So overall, I'd consider Bury a stronger suspect than Deeming, though Deeming is stronger than most.

[Abby Normal]

We have to keep in mind that with Stride we have witness who've seen the attack: Israel Schwartz. He's often called the best witness in the case. Possibly one who was involved in identification (we don't know for sure). Even if he wasn't able to identify the killer I think that we can almost be sure that he really was a witness to the Ripper attack.

hi
i agree. also, most of the witnesses that night describe a suspect wearing a peaked cap. as did schwartz.