Motive....

[bolo]

Hi Mac,

David already mentioned this: Why did an enraged crowd spit on, kick and shoot the bodies of Benito Mussolini and Clara Petacchi on Piazza Loreto in Milan in 1945, then hung them on meathooks and stoned them while ridiculing them? Because they wanted to publicly humiliate the ex-Duce and his mistress and take revenge for years of oppression. (Criminal) history is full of examples like that.

Human dignity does not end with death, that's why most countries in the world have laws against humiliation or violation of the dead or many people rally against the likes of Gunter von Hagens and his Body World exhibitions where he displays grotesquely arranged plastinated bodies of animals and humans for entertainment purposes.

Belief also plays a role here. Just think about the impact the destruction of Kelly's body must have had on your average God-fearing Londoner who got told time and again that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and thus should be treated with respect, before and after death.

All these principles and more got ripped to pieces in 13 Miller's Court, not only the body of Mary Kelly. Humiliation has more facets than just one-on-one affairs or master-and-slave relationships and does not seem to be limited to persons who are still alive. Actually that's an eon-old cultural concept that should be common knowledge.

Regards,

Boris

Hi Bolo....

Because humiliation is very personal. It would have to had have been he humiliating her while alive....not something which she wouldn't have known about when dead.....but something that she was aware of when alive...that is the the whole point of humiliation....him directing and her being aware of it (if she's not aware of it then it ain't humiliation....for it to be humilation she must feel the humiliation as it's on her part).

As I read this site the more I appreciate that there is a distinct lack of knowledge around sadism and humiliation. I'd suggest that people on here have a chat with someone who engages in consensual humiliation with a partner and I guarantee you it ain't humiliation where she isn't aware of it - she has to feel it to be humiliated....and he has to see her humiliation to get a kick from it.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Compassion? You've got to be joking. What of the spitefull slashing and cutting of Eddowes face, hardly the work of a compassionate man. In my opinion the quick kill was a result of the killers need to silence his victims as quickly as possible.

Observer

Yeah.....point taken. Disfiguring the face doesn't seem consistent with aiming to obtain organs.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Mac,

why did an enraged crowd spit on, kick and shoot the bodies of Benito Mussolini and Clara Petacchi on Piazza Loreto in Milan in 1945, then hung them on meathooks and stoned them while ridiculing them? Because they wanted to publicly humiliate the ex-Duce and his mistress and take revenge for years of oppression. (Criminal) history is full of examples like that.

Human dignity does not end with death, that's why most countries in the world have laws against humiliation or violation of the dead or many people rally against the likes of Gunter von Hagens and his Body World exhibitions where he displays grotesquely arranged plastinated bodies of animals and humans for entertainment purposes.

Belief also plays a role here. Just think about the impact the destruction of Kelly's body must have had on your average God-fearing Londoner who got told time and again that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and thus should be treated with respect, before and after death.

All these principles and more got ripped to pieces in 13 Miller's Court, not only the body of Mary Kelly. Humiliation has more facets than just one-on-one affairs or master-and-slave relationships and does not seem to be limited to persons who are still alive. Actually that's an eon-old cultural concept that should be common knowledge.

Regards,

Boris

Hi Boris....

At the very most I could possibly go with the notion that he thought he was humiliating the victims - but I maintain that at base humiliation is an emotional construct involving a power exchange rather than a physical act.

I'm not so sure on your religious point. Average god fearing Londoner? There were certainly temperance movements and the like.....but the average Londoner being religious? Hmmmmm.......in the shires it is more likely due to the strength of the Church of England in rural areas.....in the cities and towns...well the CofE never took much of a root in these places and Methodism was the religion of the urban areas though never achieved its underlying objectives. I'd be interested to see church attendance figures for towns and cities and I'd guess the records will suggest there was no such thing as 'your average god fearing Londoner' - no matter what we know of the Victorians and an age of social reform (which of course is driven by the Middle Classes rather than the Working Classes).

Out of interest - what is your view on the significane of religion in this?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi again Boris....

I've just noticed you're in Germany and I hope you don't take offence at the following because it's not meant in that manner - I truly beleve the holocaust is a lesson for all of us (rather than simply a German affair).

The Nazi policies and objectives are interesting with regard to humiliation. Now they set out to enslave Jews and humiliation was a tool to achieve this. Genocide was not conceived until the early '40s and was stumbled upon out of convenience rather than being the initial and underlying objective. In the camps they set out to prove their supposed superiority through forcing inferiority upon Jews and this was done through humiliating them. The point being that this humiliation could only be achieved while they were able to feel humiliated and inferior - therefore the Nazis believed that the Jews had to be aware of their humiliation in order to close the circle of superiority and inferiority.

[bolo]

Hi,

I'm not so sure on your religious point. Average god fearing Londoner? There were certainly temperance movements and the like.....but the average Londoner being religious? Hmmmmm.......in the shires it is more likely due to the strength of the Church of England in rural areas.....in the cities and towns...well the CofE never took much of a root in these places and Methodism was the religion of the urban areas though never achieved its underlying objectives. I'd be interested to see church attendance figures for towns and cities and I'd guess the records will suggest there was no such thing as 'your average god fearing Londoner' - no matter what we know of the Victorians and an age of social reform (which of course is driven by the Middle Classes rather than the Working Classes).

I'm not saying that the average Londoner was religious, I'm referring to the impact of the idea of postmortem mutilations on the average God-fearing person who grew up with the notion of the human body as a house of God. For a believer, the mutilations must have had a spiritual significance in that they were an act against (and hence a humiliation of) Christian principles and traditions.

Out of interest - what is your view on the significane of religion in this?

There are quite a few examples of serial killers who rated themselves as instruments of God or higher powers in general and/or came up with a spiritual explanation for their crimes. It is therefore not unreasonable to assume that there was a religious component in the Ripper crimes, even though we have no evidence to back it up.

Over the years, many people have tried to link the murders to certain religious groups or practices (like Jewish Shochets) but I find none of their theories convincing.

I've just noticed you're in Germany and I hope you don't take offence at the following because it's not meant in that manner - I truly beleve the holocaust is a lesson for all of us (rather than simply a German affair).

The Nazi policies and objectives are interesting with regard to humiliation. Now they set out to enslave Jews and humiliation was a tool to achieve this. Genocide was not conceived until the early '40s and was stumbled upon out of convenience rather than being the initial and underlying objective. In the camps they set out to prove their supposed superiority through forcing inferiority upon Jews and this was done through humiliating them. The point being that this humiliation could only be achieved while they were able to feel humiliated and inferior - therefore the Nazis believed that the Jews had to be aware of their humiliation in order to close the circle of superiority and inferiority.

I don't take offence in this at all (why should I) but fail to see its significance to the discussion at hand. The ultimate goal of the Nazi ideology as documented in Hitler's Mein Kampf and the Wannsee Conference papers was the Final Solution, read, the total extermination of the Jewish population. The humiliation and torture they inflicted upon the Jews at concentration camps or elsewhere was part of that but merely as a means to an end which even continued after death; Karl Otto Koch, commander of the Buchenwald concentration camp, had table lamps with shades made from human skin in his office. Humiliation again, on a level which goes beyond what humanity has seen before or after.

Regards,

Boris

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'm not saying that the average Londoner was religious, I'm referring to the impact of the idea of postmortem mutilations on the average God-fearing person who grew up with the notion of the human body as a house of God. For a believer, the mutilations must have had a spiritual significance in that they were an act against (and hence a humiliation of) Christian principles and traditions.

I could go with that - but I suppose you could argue that the mutilations had ramifications for wider society rather than simply Christianity. The Rule of Law is based on the premise that you have a duty to god to not harm the property (including the body) of yourself or anyone else. So were we to believe that a statement was being made - then it is not necessarily religious - it is equally conceivable that it was a statement against the established pillars/institutions of society (secular/religious/otherwise).

It is therefore not unreasonable to assume that there was a religious component in the Ripper crimes, even though we have no evidence to back it up.

A theory demands a degree of speculative thinking - but for it to carry weight it needs to be grounded in some sort of fact. So I'll proceed by dismissing any theory that has no evidence whatsoever to support it.

but fail to see its significance to the discussion at hand

The point being that humiliation was central to Nazi policy - and this was achieved while the Jews were alive. But as we disagree on the mechanics of Nazi policy there is no use in persuing this line of thought.

Best Wishes....