Serial Killers, A pattern???

[corey123]

Lynn,

I thought the point was to get a message out? Now its because they needed to be taken out?

[lynn cates]

consorting

Hello Corey. Message out? Where did you get that idea? Think about historical examples. If Al Qaida wishes to get the message out, they bomb a plane. If a member consorts with, say, the enemy--what happens?

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

And the fact that he buggered off to the Continent on the pretext of ill-health, seemingly returning to his post only under apparent duress, is even more interesting - indeed, one gets the distinct impression that he only grudgingly returned from his sabbatical because he felt under pressure to do so. If the Whitechapel Murders had been perceived as something more "specialist" - i.e. as opposed to a series of grotty slum murders - then I can't imagine his colossal Ego allowing him to react in the same way.

Its interesting to me that his "rest" in Switzerland ends with his recall to London......from Paris. Paris offered more attractions than merely tourism to SB and HO investigators at that same time, same year.

Of course, perhaps he just longed for a Cafe au Lait.

Best regards

[corey123]

Then they kill them. Not mutilate the remains.

[lynn cates]

nasty business

Hello Corey. Have you ever seen/heard of a gang-land slaying? Nasty business.

The best.
LC

[corey123]

Lynn,

Which is it, gangs or terrorist?

[perrymason]

Lynn,

Which is it, gangs or terrorist?

Are they mutually exclusive corey? Need they be? Arent groups of men organized to accomplish the same goals through aggression and fear mongering essentially the same types of characters very often?

Why would a Socialist cross the road....the answer might be to join a Fenian protest, or vice versa.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Best regards

[corey123]

Mike,

I understand trying to get Fenians into it, and I also understand socialists. But now is it fenian socialists from gangs?? Seriously, you two need to try and investigate solved murder cases as if they were unsloved. I would love to see how many murderers you come up with.

[perrymason]

Mike,

I understand trying to get Fenians into it, and I also understand socialists. But now is it fenian socialists from gangs?? Seriously, you two need to try and investigate solved murder cases as if they were unsloved. I would love to see how many murderers you come up with.

Youre missing the forest for some perimeter trees corey. Whats been brought up in a lot of debates lately regarding Fenians, Socialists, radicals, gangs,....is that there was quite obviously malicious factors at work in Whitechapel in the Fall of 1888 other than Jack. We know this to be true.

Political assassinations were being planned for the second consecutive year,.....these murders affected less than one square mile of London proper......and affected no-one middle class or higher. These few murders were not the big games going on in town.

When you pose toppling a Government through violence and revolution against 5 homeless street prostitutes being sliced up in the ghetto.....you must see that one doesnt supersede the other.....in fact, they may be merged.

Best regards

[Sox]

Not in a million years were militant Fenian's, conspiring with ale house english socialists, to butcher destitute alcoholics (including one supposedly Irish girl) with a view to bringing down the Crown.

Not even with the outlook of a Victorian militant could you convince yourself that hacking Kate Eddowes to pieces was fighting for freedom.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Corey,

Picture this if you can.
C1 and C2 murdered by a madman. Even a mad, Polish Jew. Call him Kosminski, Ischenschmidt,Diemshitz...call him whatever you will... the "type" of person that JTR is commonly associated with.

Picture C3... a one off, angry, alchohol induced fit of quick rage, in quick time, right outside a place where drink is served, in the dark of night of the yard...

Picture C4 and C5, with Fenian intervention. Eddowes and Kelly, somehow mixed up in the anti Fenian stuff...picture these two women are part of, and that MUST be stressed.. part of, the underground anti Fenian mob scattered about the area, (men and women) working for the SD, or under their instructions...to get info..or IN POSESSION OF, info, relating to Fenian activity. They get rubbed out. Their faces in the first instance partly slashed apart...that is a KNOWN "execution" method for snitches to be treated..make them unseen, ears, eyes..hear no evil, see know evil..and then ultimately, speak no evil. The body ripping?..its MADE to look like C1 and C2...to make it LOOK like a maniac responsible for all 4, if not 5. Disinformation and deflection from the finger being pointed.
It isn't IMPOSSIBLE Corey. In gangs, and political madmen, it is done all the time. There are still many tens of people MISSING because of their anti IRA stance from the 70's and 80's. They were silenced. No, Fenians didnt always use bombs Corey. A look back at history gives many varying and wide examples of causing terror. ON INDIVIDUALS. OF NORMAL people.
The classic example in recent times is the Omagh bombings... its not the bomb that is important...it was the impact..the reaction it caused. The FEAR factor. Normal, innocent women and children, blown away. Not aimed at any police group, or army group. But the TERROR factor...the POWER over the poplace...I lived in London in the 70's.. and the stuff going on there frightened the life out of you.. NAIL bombs against men on horseback.. Knightsbridge..the Harrods bomb...One boat blown apart on a holiday in Ireland, Mountbatten, who was an old man..it was a statement...in any way, we will get you. That was the message. It may be hard to understand, but reality nearly always is with extremist groups.

It happens today, yesterday and yesteryear. And it takes enormous amounts of police energy to counter such things. Within the IWMC alone, there were police raids left right and centre. And it WASN'T only Jews in that place Corey...Irish and Anarchists hung around there. Anarchists and Fenians, from all over were arrested in the years around 1888. That lot were VERY powerful. American sympathisers of Home Rule were many in number, and funding was great. People were sent over or volunteered to join in. Doctors, terrorists, and KILLERS.

This isn't to belittle any other idea. It is just TIME to look another way Corey... because, as long time researcher of repute, Simon Wood says, ...
"when for 121 years we have walked down the same alley, and gotten to a dead end, it is time to go back to the start and take a different alley".
The first alley, Corey, is exhausted. There are no more possibilities.
And that alley will never give an answer.
So give this alley a wide berth, and give it a chance. The basis is simple. Politically, Fenians and Anarchists were in force. Counter measures included infiltrating their systems. Anderson, the top anti Fenian was dragged in on a MURDER case.... and Abberline, Irish expert and East End expert. And others. Top ranking Policemen with Anti Fenian experience, all become involved.
And after Mary Kelly?... all the stuff is toned down. The police, soon afterwards start disappearing in geat numbers, back to their ordinary beats. They KNEW Kelly was the last one. Anderson knew. And Warren, he resigned the day it was announced to the world, on the flimsiest of reasons.
Then the smokescreens began. The reasons, the disinformation, the police all giving different views and opinions.

Give this idea (not theory) a wide berth, and let it run Corey. You won't be the only one surprised if it turned out that way. Emminent Ripperologists the world over would be taken aback. Because it ISN'T the accepted answer.
Nope, it isn't. But this investigation has stood dead still for long enough. It is time for a change.
And if we are wrong? SO WHAT??????
It means we have got as far as anyone else. NOWHERE.
Just give it a break. This isnt going to topple Royalty..there isnt a unwanted Royal birth. No false rubbish Corey. The difference with this idea is that the pieces WERE all in place, so it IS feasable.. It isnt made up. See?

Thank you for reading this.

best wishes

Phil

[Sox]

Royal birth. No false rubbish Corey. The difference with this idea is that the pieces WERE all in place, so it IS feasable.. It isnt made up. See?

A lot of it is exagerated, the Fenians had a vastly over infalted view of themselves & a great deal of it was just a lot of talk. As to American involvement, well the Irish Brigade veterans who invaded Canada in 66 would have testified that while many many Irish American talked the talk, very few of them were interested in walking the walk. Radicals,Socialists, Anarchists et al may well have been as thick as fleas, but hardly any of them were actually men of action.

And all across the United Kingdom they still, in 2010, sit in their clubs singing songs and promising death destruction and reform. To the utter glee of the British secret service they have always been able to infiltrate these groups, simply because they are chock full of rank amatuers.

I am totally at a loss as to how anyone could be deluded enough to think that killing a couple of prostitutes in the East End, equates to paralyzing the Police force of London. In the wake of a Fenian uprising the British government would have abandoned those women to their fate in an instant, they would not have even given them a second thought.

Now I am not rubbishing your theory, I'd just really like for you to explain exactly what a militant force could possibly hope to gain by killing Eddowes and Kelly, and lets not even pretend that they thought they were spreading chaos please, because that really is not the case. If a two year bombing campaign wasn't going to get it done, then butchering a couple of drunks in the East end was doomed to failure.

Lets not even go down the 'shaking public opinion' route either. The public in the UK has never had confidence in it's police force. The bombing campaign that ended in 85 had, as you well know, created Special Branch who, as you also know, were dealing with the Fenians in London.

You do not create civil unrest by murdering civilians, nor do you divide a nation by killing its people, you unite it (just as the British government would unite Ireland with the executions in the wake of the failed 1916 uprising), and certainly by 1888 the Fenians had begun to realise this. And these are Victorian Militants we are talking about here, not the Taliban. Blowing up Scotland Yard could be seen as striking at the heart of imperialism, butchering Kate Eddowes and Mary Kelly most certainly could not, even in the most fervent of minds.

I can see the idea, insurgency is nothing new after all, I just cannot see what they could have hoped to achieve thats all.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Sox,

Respectfully. It has got nothing at all to do with just "what a militant force could possible hope to gain bt killing Eddowes and Stride"

EXACTLY?... Simple
1) Jenkinson started the whole thing by employing locals, men and women, as snitches, in Whitechapel.
2) Anderson took over the Fenian busting....then took on JTR..The CASE. More undercover police sent in. On a murder case. With the SAME undercover tactics used.
3) C4 and C5 were part of the above.
4) They got caught by the very people they were trying to snitch on... SNITCH on.. re PLOTS to kill Balfour, and gawd knows what else.... etc etc etc. (A MUCH bigger threat...).
They were disposed of.
5) C4 and C5, as muders, werent the statement... but C4 and C5 the PEOPLE... the INFORMATION...were! Thats why they had to be liquidated.

Perhaps (Note this is supposition) Eddowes Fire Engine impersonation was only the last bit of her drunken mouthing off....Perhaps Kelly had started to mouth off in the pub... I dont know. But loose tongues talk. And drunk ones talk a lot. And loud. Its speculation...but it is possible.

now you are totally at a loss, I hope you have gained something more.

Thank you for reading this. Its an over-simplification. But thats as simple as it gets.

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

They KNEW Kelly was the last one.

Phil

Hi Phil,

...and oh, no, they didn't.
Munro's first opinion was that MacKenzie was a victim of JtR. Phillips also.

And Lawende, witness in the C4 case, has been called to identify several suspects, up to 1895.


Amitiés,
David

[Phil Carter]

David,

Like I said earlier, thats very possible... like I also said, this is an idea, not a theory, and like I said earlier, it isnt infallable. But all the pieces ARE in place in Whitechapel. This is a working idea, that has to be stated. It may have variations, and there isnt anything set in stone... but it is a darn sight more plausible than some of the stuff we have ben dished up over the years.

best wishes

Phil