DNA From Children

[Roy Corduroy]

Well that's just it isn't? It's uniform, it's free, it's official. It's also illogical, untested, redundant, and unnecessary.

So parents who participate in a program that has no logical basis behind it on some speculation that some catastrophe might one day happen to their child are operating on a fear-based response and not using logic. Which I call hysterical, but I'll accept may just be completely irrational.

I said it's uniform, that's not actually true. Different states and locales are doing different types of Child ID. The Masons are heavily involved in some areas. There are a variety of approaches, whether the blood sample we discused from Florida or fingerprints, which are favored in Illionois and Michigan.

But there is one constant in a child ID kit, an official photo of your child registered in a program, to be used in many ways, such as busting a child pornographer, of which there are many. (click)

You must prove in court who the child is. Legal rights advocates won a ruling requiring it. (click)

So if you are a parent and your child is victimized, do you want to do legal battle with pedophiles and their lawyers and advocates without your official ID kit. Well, no, of course not. That would be irrational.

But think about it, advocates for pedophiles rights having won this ruling, wouldn't it be great if they could convince parents that THEY, the parents would be irrational to sign their child up for ID?

So how many parents would buy that irrational bit? None, of course. Zero.

Roy

[Ally]

You are still missing the point. You said that ALL government agencies drug test and DNA analyze all government employees. You are wrong. They do not test ALL employees every year. Does. Not. Happen.

at any rate the protien in the urin is tested for DNA to ensure the sample came from the right person as i understand it this test only takes about 10 minutes.

Wow a DNA analysis and comparison match in under ten minutes. Y'all should be on CSI.

Yes my childs DNA is on file with the FBI becouse of the program I used it being a federal program that where the data base is kept. I have my own reason for doing it that dont concern anyone else and i dont feel the need to have to explain then to anyone.

Well you surely don't have to explain it to me but you might have to explain it to your child one day.

[smezenen]

The fact that you keep responding to me and not answering my questions proves that if there were any logical basis to what you posted, you would have replied. There clearly isn't.

So now you are just going to say that it's my fault you didn't answer despite the fact that I "insulted" you in one post only and you replied to that post with elaboration and answers to my questions.

I have not insulted you in any further posts and yet now suddenly you are refusing to elaborate or answer any of my questions and posting entire posts that do nothing but insult me under the "you started it" principle. But I am sure that the reason why you are suddenly not answering my very relevant questions is because of that initial post and not because you have no logical answer.

No M'am I didnt reply to any of your further posts becouse i didnt see a logical question only repeated ranting about how its not possible.
If youask a logical question i will give a logical answer. for example how in the world is it possible to test everysoldier every year? We use a 10% rule to conduct our tests. Using the last number of our social security number we test begin in january and draw one number 0-9 if the number 5 is drawn then everyone whos SSN ends with 5 is tested on during the first week of that month the number is then removed from the drawing system leaving 9 numbers. so if you have 200 people in your unit and 100 civilians assigned to you then you test 30 of them each month. That usually takes about 2 hours to collect all the samples from the military personnel becousethey are pulled out of morning formation The civilians usually filtered in thruout the day. When I enter their name into the computer data base it assignes the DNA specific tracking number that is already on file (becouse we all have already given a sample). I print out the label containing that traking number and attach it to the bottle, put it in the box and ship it to the local military lab for testing. I get the priliminary results back in 7-10 days with confirmed positive results in 14 days. How the DNA tracking number is assigned is out of my realm of experience I only know that each of the DNA indicators is assigned a number by where it falls on the chart so that you end up with a number and leter combination that would look something like a98b49f02g86k39n22i44s27 the number is much longer than this but it gives you an example. your number never changes so once its on file in the data base its easy to macth up a name and a number. This system is used in the Lab to ensure anonanimity they used to use Social security numbers until a few years ago when a lab lost a document that contained a few thousand numbers and some identity theft occured becouse of it. at any rate the protien in the urin is tested for DNA to ensure the sample came from the right person as i understand it this test only takes about 10 minutes. this policy is now the standard for military and for the government civilians that are tested by military labs. and yes the United States government has a drug testing policy for all federal agencies. call any one of them and ask if they have mandatory testing. Yes my childs DNA is on file with the FBI becouse of the program I used it being a federal program that where the data base is kept. I have my own reason for doing it that dont concern anyone else and i dont feel the need to have to explain then to anyone. If you have any more questions and can ask them in a logic manner I will try to answer them.

[Ally]

Good questions, Ally and I don't have the answers. Like how many successful prosecutions. Or the natural disaster part. But this is how it's done these days. It's unform, it's free. It's official.

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Well that's just it isn't? It's uniform, it's free, it's official. It's also illogical, untested, redundant, and unnecessary.

So parents who participate in a program that has no logical basis behind it on some speculation that some catastrophe might one day happen to their child are operating on a fear-based response and not using logic. Which I call hysterical, but I'll accept may just be completely irrational.

[Archaic]

Fish & ... Microchips

My dog has a micro-chip called an Avid Chip: 'American Veterinary Identification Device.' It was inserted under his skin when he was a puppy, and he barely felt it. If he is ever lost & picked up by any pet shelter or Animal Control agency they will scan him, look up his registered owner & then notify me & my veterinarian. If he is injured & taken to a veterinary hospital they will also scan him, & if he is ever stolen, I can use the chip to legally prove he is my dog. Most dog-owners I meet these days have their dogs chipped.

Are these pet i.d. chips popular in the UK & elsewhere?

I have often wondered if children will get these tiny chips one day. They do not involve anything like DNA information, so may be preferable in some ways- for example, a large number of kids go "missing" during parental custody disputes & the parent who takes them in an effort to circumvent a court order frequently changes their identity.

Of course, microchips would not help track criminals via the evidence left at crime scenes.

And we all know there will be those who will scream that it's 'The Mark of the Beast' being implanted, but they do that with School Vaccination Programs too!

Best regards, Archaic

[Roy Corduroy]

Good questions, Ally and I don't have the answers. Like how many successful prosecutions. Or the natural disaster part. But this is how it's done these days. It's unform, it's free. It's official.

Anyway, nice talking to you. And did you see, I made Sergeant? Thank you Stephen and staff for providing this fun and informative forum.

Roy

And remember, this was originally an English police matter thread, and they'll be awake soon. So I'm gonna get while the gettin's good.

[Mr.Hyde]

Re original post-reckon it's a good idea.I'm very much for civil liberties,unless they protect the guilty.Think about it.
Reckon JTR would not have got as far as he did if this sort of screening was available then.

[Ally]

There are several places you can find unique DNA from a child. You might have 4 children, but they probably aren't sharing underwear. You might have four children but they don't all share a pillow. And as with any crime, the other 3 children can be excluded with only the needed DNA sourced after the fact the same as with any other crime where they have to find unique DNA profiles. I would love to know in exactly how many cases have these "DNA profiles" from one of these programs actually been used in the prosecution of a crime?

And as for natural disasters, chances are good if the body of the child is in such bad shape that it requires a DNA match, what are the chances that the parent is going to be able to find the paper envelope that contains their child's DNA sample? Or that it will still be in a condition to be tested after a natural disaster? If a child needs to be identified in those cases, a parent to child match is probably going to be the best bet.

[Roy Corduroy]

However, the child program mentioned is equally redundant. It doesn't take blood or a program to collect DNA from a kidnapped child. That can be done after the actual crime. Parents who collect blood from their children in anticipation of their kidnapping are on the hysterical side. A hair from their brush would work just as well.

Hi Ally,

I carefully highlighted the relevant portions from the Florida site addressing your concerns and questions. We agree there is no privacy issue.

You said " It doesn't take blood or a program to collect DNA from a kidnapped child.That can be done after the actual crime."

That makes no sense, Ally.

This is for a kidnapping, disappearance, or natural disaster.

You said "a hair brush would work as well." What, leave it to chance? What if you have 4 children? Which hair brush? Prove that in court.

Again, please read the portion I highlighted. This is the optimum tool for law enforcement. Note with the upmost care the line from Florida "helpful in convicting the perpetrator." Ironclad scientific evidence to present in court that will stand up to a defense lawyer's challenge.

Again, characterizing parents who do this as "hysterical" is a unique opinion I don't think I've ever heard. It's widely done all over the country. For obvious good reason.

Roy

[Ally]

The fact that you keep responding to me and not answering my questions proves that if there were any logical basis to what you posted, you would have replied. There clearly isn't.

So now you are just going to say that it's my fault you didn't answer despite the fact that I "insulted" you in one post only and you replied to that post with elaboration and answers to my questions.

I have not insulted you in any further posts and yet now suddenly you are refusing to elaborate or answer any of my questions and posting entire posts that do nothing but insult me under the "you started it" principle. But I am sure that the reason why you are suddenly not answering my very relevant questions is because of that initial post and not because you have no logical answer.

[smezenen]

And yeah Smez, after your last post there you've lost any moral highground. So your indignation over my tin foil hat comment rings a bit hollow now.

You Ma"am lost the moral high ground with your first reply to my post. Had you asked for clarification instead of insulting me with your tinfoil hat comment i would have answered you questions. I am not the one who started the insults.

[Ally]

Hi Roy,

Those were the child programs I was speaking of in my earlier response. However, my comments in the last couple of posts were in relation to Smez saying that his child's DNA sample has been sent to the FBI to be stored in their database in case something ever happens to his child.
This makes no logical sense whatsoever to me.

However, the child program mentioned is equally redundant. It doesn't take blood or a program to collect DNA from a kidnapped child. That can be done after the actual crime. Parents who collect blood from their children in anticipation of their kidnapping are on the hysterical side. A hair from their brush would work just as well.

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Ally,

Here is the link for the Florida program. (click) The parent keeps possession of the sample. According to this "Please be advised, this is only a blood sample. The blood sample DOES NOT need to be analyzed for DNA unless it is required for investigative purposes. If analysis is required, law enforcement will do it free of charge." That seems to answer the privacy concern.

As to the investigative benefit: " If a child is abducted and moved to various locations, this sample may be useful for placing the child at each site and helpful in convicting the perpetrator."

Roy

[Ally]

That's fine if you don't. However, when that child grows up and is denied insurance because their DNA profile indicates that they are at risk for breast cancer or Huntington's or some other type disease, or they are refused a job because of genetic predisposition that might make them croak early and are therefore a poor risk maybe you'll change your mind about casually passing out relevant data on your child.

Editing to add: if a child is kidnapped, what exact good does the DNA do? I mean if the child is found, the parents can be tested to see if the child is a match if that is necessary. If a child is kidnapped there will be that child's DNA all over their room and dirty clothes. So why is it necessary to submit a DNA test prior to a child even being kidnapped?

[Roy Corduroy]

Yes Smez, I understand you now.

Hi Ally,

The child ID program is encouraged by law enforcement for two reasons. (1) To have the child's DNA to help in an investigation, and (2) pedophiles know the program exists.

You are the first person I've heard characterize parents who participate as "hysterical" and "screwing with their child's privacy." I don't agree.

Roy