Why Stop At All

[Daveshredder]

and at fairly predictable time intervals.

Didnt the nights have a fairly odd time pattern ?

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,Michael.
No your not a thorn in my theory, for it is modern day professional opinion, that it would have been almost impossible to verify the T.O.D of Mary Kelly, taking into account the state in which she was found, and the lack of medical knowledge, availaible then.
Even now establishing time of death is not a science, and many factors are still taken into consideration when making a decision.
The real thorn in this case was Mrs Maxwell who really showed that medical opinion had a lot to be desired, i have suspicions that the police themselves even doubted their own police doctors, that is why they elected to request Maxwell to attend the inquest, even though it went against medical opinion.
Either that or they were expecting Mrs M to change her mind when faced with the oath.
But she did not do that did she?
I would suggest that the reported cries of Mjk at 4am , influenced the doctors opinion, and their T.O.D was pure guesswork.
Regards Richard.

[babybird67]

hi Richard

interesting posts.

Maxwell is as problematic as Hutch in some respects.

That two people heard the "oh murder" cry would seem to suggest something was heard at that time...

But then, Maxwell's testimony regarding going to the shops for her husband's lunch was corroborated for having occurred on that day...and it was a special day so it's not likely that she would have been confused about it.

I don't know the answer. It could simply be that someone she thought she knew as Kelly, wasn't actually Kelly. It could be that she did see Kelly herself, in which case time of death according to doctors would have been inaccurate.

Questions...questions...lol

[babybird67]

hi Christine

Exactly what was going on in the killer's head is debatable, but ultimately he was out of control, driven, and unable to be rational about what he was doing.

i think the killer was quite chillingly rational, hence his ability to evade almost certain capture on a number of occasions, and evade detection altogether for the series of murders in its entirety.

It scares me more to conceive of him as rational...i used to think anyone capable of this must be mad. I dont think so anymore.

I think removing him from humanity by labelling him as "other", by thinking he was mad and no rational human being would be capable of such things, is a soporific idea, which gives comfort and understanding to what is, in essence, a series of murders which is very unsettling to study, and impossible to understand.

[smezenen]

Rigor onset can be affected by the ambient temperature, the level of physical exertion by the deceased at the moment of death, etc...and it is used carefully in estimating TOD. Rigor onset takes 3-4 hours minimum, usually between 4 to 7 hours, and escalates for another 8-9 hours, peaking at around 12 hours after death, it then gradually decreases over the next 12-24 hours.

PM,
Are you describing Rigor Mortis or Algor Mortis? these are two different phenomenons that occur at death.

Algor Mortis or body cooling in modern forensics is considered the most useful single indicator of the time of death during the first 24 hours post mortem. Practical observations indicate that the cooling of a human body is best represented by a sigmoid curve when temperature is plotted against time. Thus, there is an initial maintenance of body temperature which may last for some hours - the so-called "temperature plateau" - followed by a relatively linear rate of cooling which subsequently slows rapidly as the body approaches the environmental temperature. The initial lag in cooling was first described by Rainy, Regius Professor of Forensic Medicine in Glasgow, in 1869. The post mortem temperature plateau generally lasts 1/2 to one hour but may persist as long as three hours and some authorities claim that it may persist as long as five hours.

Rigor Mortis or stiffening of the muscles and joints occurs when the muscle tissue becomes anoxic and all oxygen dependent processes cease to function, then the level of ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate) is maintained by anaerobic glycolysis which results in increasing levels of pyruvic and lactic acids. Eventually, the muscle glycogen is depleted, the cellular pH falls to around 6, and the level of ATP falls below a critical level beyond which rigor rapidly develops. Normally ATP inhibits the activation of the linkages between actin and myosin; a fall in the level of ATP allows the irreversible development of these linkages. In individuals who have been exhausted or starved before death, the glycogen stores in muscle are low, so that rigor may develop rapidly. The use of Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis, a dark purple discolouration of the skin resulting from the gravitational pooling of blood in the veins and capillary beds of the dependent parts of the body following cessation of the circulation, to determine TOD in modern forensics is strongly avoided except as a supporting factor to Algor Mortis. of course they use Rigor Mortis on popular telivison shows to avoid complex Explanations like this one.

So what does all of that mean.......well it means that while ambient temperature does have a factor in the onset time of Algor Mortis It really doesn’t affect Rigor Mortis and in fact can delay the onset of rigor if the temperatures are below freezing. In which case the chemicals in the muscle tissue freeze and Rigor mortis onset begins when thetissue thaws. It is Algor Mortis that is most affected by ambient temperature but the fact that the bodys abdominal cavity was opened and most of the internal organs removed will cause Algor Mortis to occure at an accelerated pace. In 1888 most forensic doctors had an idea about what Algor Mortis was but they used a fixed timetable to determine TOD that was based on Rigor Mortis which as we know now is a completely different phenomenon and didn’t take into account the factors that would have influenced body cooling in this case such as humidity, ambient temp, amount of viscera left in the body, amount of clothing worn by the victim, did the victim have an elevated temperature before death due to an illness, and many more.

[Domino]

Greetings, i don't know if this theory has been discussed before (quite probably has), but, is it possible that Jack may, himself, been murdered? Not because he was found out, but possibly a victim of a simple crime of violence, maybe was assaulted or robbed and murdered in the process? hence the cessation of Ripper murders?

It wouldn't be too implausible would it?

[babybird67]

not implausible at all Domino

welcome.

Nobody really knows what happened, so any suggestion is worth considering.

[smezenen]

it was a rough neighborhood Domino so anything is possible along those lines. LOL I wouldnt want to run into man that killed the ripper in a lighted place much less a dark ally. heres a thought for you to pursue at your leisure if Jack was the victim of a violent crime then his name will be recorded somewhere. How many men where killed in East London within a short period after the Mary Kelly murder? assuming he would kill again within a few months if he was still alive then I think you could narrow your search to the lst 2 months of 1888.

[perrymason]

PM,
Are you describing Rigor Mortis or Algor Mortis? these are two different phenomenons that occur at death.

Algor Mortis or body cooling in modern forensics is considered the most useful single indicator of the time of death during the first 24 hours post mortem. Practical observations indicate that the cooling of a human body is best represented by a sigmoid curve when temperature is plotted against time. Thus, there is an initial maintenance of body temperature which may last for some hours - the so-called "temperature plateau" - followed by a relatively linear rate of cooling which subsequently slows rapidly as the body approaches the environmental temperature. The initial lag in cooling was first described by Rainy, Regius Professor of Forensic Medicine in Glasgow, in 1869. The post mortem temperature plateau generally lasts 1/2 to one hour but may persist as long as three hours and some authorities claim that it may persist as long as five hours.

Rigor Mortis or stiffening of the muscles and joints occurs when the muscle tissue becomes anoxic and all oxygen dependent processes cease to function, then the level of ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate) is maintained by anaerobic glycolysis which results in increasing levels of pyruvic and lactic acids. Eventually, the muscle glycogen is depleted, the cellular pH falls to around 6, and the level of ATP falls below a critical level beyond which rigor rapidly develops. Normally ATP inhibits the activation of the linkages between actin and myosin; a fall in the level of ATP allows the irreversible development of these linkages. In individuals who have been exhausted or starved before death, the glycogen stores in muscle are low, so that rigor may develop rapidly. The use of Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis, a dark purple discolouration of the skin resulting from the gravitational pooling of blood in the veins and capillary beds of the dependent parts of the body following cessation of the circulation, to determine TOD in modern forensics is strongly avoided except as a supporting factor to Algor Mortis. of course they use Rigor Mortis on popular telivison shows to avoid complex Explanations like this one.

So what does all of that mean.......well it means that while ambient temperature does have a factor in the onset time of Algor Mortis It really doesn’t affect Rigor Mortis and in fact can delay the onset of rigor if the temperatures are below freezing. In which case the chemicals in the muscle tissue freeze and Rigor mortis onset begins when thetissue thaws. It is Algor Mortis that is most affected by ambient temperature but the fact that the bodys abdominal cavity was opened and most of the internal organs removed will cause Algor Mortis to occure at an accelerated pace. In 1888 most forensic doctors had an idea about what Algor Mortis was but they used a fixed timetable to determine TOD that was based on Rigor Mortis which as we know now is a completely different phenomenon and didn’t take into account the factors that would have influenced body cooling in this case such as humidity, ambient temp, amount of viscera left in the body, amount of clothing worn by the victim, did the victim have an elevated temperature before death due to an illness, and many more.

Excellent explanation smezenen, thank you. So... if Ive got this right, the "temp plateau" in the case of Mary Kelly had passed and the rigor mortis onset, stiffening of joints and muscles, which increased during the autopsy, would have begun once that "plateau" reached its conclusion. The plateau in conventional wisdom may be 3-5 hours, some think perhaps even longer.

All good so far?

The room that the corpse was in was 10 x 10 and within that room there was a grate with ashes that were still warm to the touch at 1:30pm on the 9th. The corpse was essentially emptied of major organs and blood, which could allow for a more rapid cooling time overall if not in a warm environment. Im assuming we are talking roughly a drop of a single degree or so per hour for the "plateau" period, and a steady rate of decline in temperature for each subsequent hour afterward. Still good?

If she was in a state of Rigor Mortis when they started the exam at 2pm, and by their remarks advancing in that state while they examined her, would they have any way of knowing how long this was past the temperature plateau during Algor Mortis? For example....lets say Algor Mortis, based on Richards theory of a 9-9:30am death, would end between 12 to 2pm? Assuming that the ambient warmer temperature counteracted the effects of her being opened and having her insides removed.

The doctor at 2pm said she was in a state of Rigor Mortis and it was increasing. If the results in this case were textbook durations as youve given, that theory can barely work timewise.

However, if you put her death back a few hours, it gives us a margin for error which we need based on the fact that they nor we know how long it took for Marys remains to cool. If the room was quite warm at 9-9:30am....ongoing Rigor at 2pm sharp may be impossible.

Based on credible evidence and reason, we can be fairly sure that the cry at 3:45am heard by Sarah and Liz Prater both was from Marys room. So likely a live Mary.

That's the last time she is seen or heard that is believed by the investigators....and me.

If she dies anytime within the next 2 or 3 hours, that probably puts Algor Mortis at roughly around 10 to 11am.....3:45am plus the 2-3 hours plus the 3-5 hours for the Temperature Plateau to be completed.

Add 2 1/2 hours before they enter the room. Its locked with closed windows, its retaining its warmth. I think that would better cover the timings and explain not only the presence of Rigor but the increased onset of it at 2pm.

Make sense amigo?

Cheers smezenen

[Domino]

Greetings, Smezenen. I forgot to mention that fact, whether any murdered men had been found after the murders had stopped and was on record.

[smezenen]

Excellent explanation smezenen, thank you. So... if Ive got this right, the "temp plateau" in the case of Mary Kelly had passed and the rigor mortis onset, stiffening of joints and muscles, which increased during the autopsy, would have begun once that "plateau" reached its conclusion. The plateau in conventional wisdom may be 3-5 hours, some think perhaps even longer.

All good so far?

Actually Michael, I think the facts we do know will skew the time line more than a little.
First the ambient temp and the body temp will not have a bearing in the onset time of Rigor UNLESS the ambient temp is below freezing, so to say that the bodies accelerated cooling affected rigor is incorrect. Rigor Mortis onset is affected by many other things like physical activity just before death, diet, health, and others. It basically begins when the oxygen in the muscle tissue is used up. Since Mary was drained of blood this would have affected the amount of oxygen her muscles had available immediately after death. After talking to a friend in the forensics field he states that Mary’s rigor could have began in as little as 30 minutes or as late as 4 hours. That gives a window to the onset of 3 and a half hours. He also states that without knowing exactly how advanced the rigor was at the time the investigation began there is no way of determining the TOD window using Rigor Mortis as the only evidence. For instance if she where half way thru the second stage of Rigor (the stiffening stage) then you could assume she was 3 hours into that stage plus the 3 and a half hour window for the onset plus the 2 hours of stage 1 (the relaxing of the muscles, we have a TOD window of 3:30AM to 7AM. That leaves a big window and when given that we are guessing at what point of stage 2 she was at the window gets even bigger. For instance if stage 2 was almost complete we can add another 2-3 hours placing our starting time at 12Am-3:30AM as you can begin to see now Rigor Mortis is not a very good indicator of TOD and the best we can do today is to trust that the Doctor conducting the exam was correct in the estimations he made.

Second the removal of the viscera acclerated the time curve for body cooling making an Algor Mortis derived TOD impossible in 1888 due to the lack in the study of this process at that time. So once again we are left trusting the good doctor.

[perrymason]

Hi Smezenen,

I think one thing does seem clear in that mess of medical data ....if we are allowing for any leeway in timing due to factors we cannot know....her state of exertion before death, room temp, time of cooling due to evisceration....what we need to do is allow room for an earlier time of death than 9 or 9:30am, not assume the death could have occurred with barely enough time to allow for the findings they had at 2pm.

Her corpse may have begun Rigor Mortis as early as when Bowyer first sees her.

Cheers mate.

[smezenen]

That is correct Micheal. the 2 points i was trying to highlight are:

1- Tempurature has nothing to do with Rigor Mortis onset unless its below freezing. We know there was a fire burning in the fire place that was still warm to the touch so we can assume the room temp was not below 32degrees F.

2- Not enough was known in 1888 about the conditions that affect the onset of Rigor Mortis, health, physical activity, diet, so on and so on, for the investigating doctor to have accuratly estimated the TOD using Rigor Mortis as the only indicator. what other indicators did he use? are they reported or did he use them to support his estimate and then leave them out of the report becouse he believed the Rigor Mortis indicator could stand alone as evidence? like a modern police investigation uses a tape measure to measure the length of a skid to judge speed but then only reports the speed of the vehicle in the main report.

Even today in modern times you would be hard pressed to get a TOD from a real (not TV) Medical examiner that doesnt have a window of at least 3 hours if Rigor Mortis is the only indicator. As I understand it the only realiable point of the Rigor Mortis process is at the 48 hour mark (+/- 1 hour) when the muscle tissue once again relaxes or becomes flacid and putrifiction begins. So even if you were examining the body during that phase you would still have a 3 hour window for TOD.

I think we have a few law enforcement officials in the crowd that may have real life experience with this. Anyone care to provide more detail or correct any mistakes I have made here?

[perrymason]

Hi smezenen,

Seems to me your doing fine As an aside, physical state isnt the only means they had to gauge TOD, they also had partly digested food, and the ability to determine roughly how long before she died she had eaten.

If you consider that by the official position on this night Mary is not seen out of her room again after arriving home just before midnight, and that her room is witnessed as dark and quiet at 1:30am....without knowing that it was Mary who called out at 3:45am, and knowing that she would have had to have eaten while awake, we have a guesstimate already. Its before 1:30am, and after 11:45pm Thursday night. Which timing would coincide with her coming home from a pub with a man in tow, after just having a snoot full at the pub,.and known Fish and Chips places en route home open near midnight or past.

Thats the meal, when the blade falls is another thing.

All the best smez

[Sam Flynn]

We know that there was a place on Thrawl Street selling fish and chips as late as 2AM.