The Ripper's Signature........

[perrymason]

Kelly`s abdomen was the centre of operations, Mike. The killer then burrowed up to the heart through the abdominal cavity.

Youre a braver man that I to suggest that there is abdominal focus in the wounds made on Mary Kellys body Jon.

Her thighs were stripped of flesh, one completely. Her face is mutilated. Any and all abdominal organs excised are left behind and placed about the body. Those are all time consuming actions, and none related to a focal interest in things inside her abdomen....like is clearly shown with Polly, Annie and Kate.

You can say with support that the "entry point" in Mary Kelly for him to access her heart was her abdomen....not that her abdomen held any special interest at all to him by the evidence.

Best regards Jon

[perrymason]

Mike,
I agree with the 3 phases. 1..... I think the only reason we dont see PM mutilation in Stride is because Jack is interrupted.

We have been discussing the diferences in this killing as compaired to the the other C5 in another thread. after thinking on things tonight and going back over the PM reports for MJK I really believe the only difference here is the fact that it occured indoors and Jack had more time with MJK than any of the others so he was able to do more. 2....He still uses the 3 phases, still give his signature. Phase 1 choke, phase 2 cut the throat, phase 3 mutilate.

One more thought here on your statement about " just cutting to pieces". 3...he had more time to explore his urges here. he started with the familiar abdominal mutilation but continued past that.

Hi smezenen,

On the parts in bold above,...

1. The case of Liz Stride doesnt have within the evidence suggestion that the killer was interrupted at all. There are no signs based on the deceased's position or condition, and by Dr Blackwells estimate while attending Liz in that yard at 1:16am, the most probable time for her to have been cut was "not more that 20 minutes before his arrival, at the most, 1/2 hour". That translates to 12:46am and 12:56am being the most likely time for the cut. Diemshutz, the man assumed to have interrupted the killer, doesnt arrive until 1am.

2. With Mary Kelly, there is no choking evidence...and there is evidence she was resisting while he had a knife in his hands. Thereby contrasting the Ripper 1-2-3 technique. No victim resisted once on the ground semi or fully unconscious. He didnt have a knife in his hands when subduing them, he needed both hands for that. Mary was conscious while a knife was being used by the killer.

3. The glut needs to be explained to see Marys wounds in any kind of Ripper context, that is for sure. What that assumption does...that he went overboard because he had the "safety" of the room to work in, presupposes that what Jack really wanted was to just cut....not that he wanted to cut certain places and take certain things from inside those places. It presupposes he would feel more secure in a location that of all 5, has the least opportunity for him to escape, having to leave via the same single accessway that anyone who might comes into the court would have to use. Its the only site where he can be watched from behind without being aware of it...its the only murder site that could be viewed by a court witness anytime she left the courtyard and walked past the alcove with her windows.

The pattern that is evident with Polly to Annie to Kate, 1. Subdue physically-2. Take out knife and cut throat-3. Mutilate abdomen....is absent with Liz Stride, and with Mary Kelly.

In simple terms, Annie was thought to be killed and mutilated in the fashion she was so that the killer could obtain an abdominal organ from her, Mary was killed the way she was so the killer could take her heart?

Did he think her heart was inside her right thigh?

Best regards smezenen.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Mike

The abdomen was opened in the same manner as Chapman, the intestines pulled out and put to the side like Chapman and Eddowes and the organs laid out around the body.

We`ll have to agree to disagree my friend

[Mascara & Paranoia]

The pattern that is evident with Polly to Annie to Kate, 1. Subdue physically-2. Take out knife and cut throat-3. Mutilate abdomen....is absent with Liz Stride, and with Mary Kelly.

Only Polly and Annie showed signs of having been physically subdued before having their throats slashed. Kate seems to have been cut offguard somehow. As for Mary, there was no need for Jack to have subdued her.

[perrymason]

Hi Mike

The abdomen was opened in the same manner as Chapman, the intestines pulled out and put to the side like Chapman and Eddowes and the organs laid out around the body.

We`ll have to agree to disagree my friend

And theres nothing wrong with that, there are no "correct" answers here, just ones that make sense to the interpreter.

Ill just add that anything moved aside in Annies or Kates murder was seemingly to allow greater ease of access. The organs taken were still from that same region.

Best regards Jon.

[perrymason]

Only Polly and Annie showed signs of having been physically subdued before having their throats slashed. Kate seems to have been cut offguard somehow. As for Mary, there was no need for Jack to have subdued her.

Kate was assumed,.. just like the previous victims Annie and Polly,.. to be on the ground on her back and not resisting when her throat was cut. I dont claim to have the answer as to how he does that, but he does do it.

Mary resisted her attack with the knife and received defensive wounds.....seems like there was a need to have subdued her first. But he evidently didnt.

Cheers M & P

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Kate was assumed,.. just like the previous victims Annie and Polly,.. to be on the ground on her back and not resisting when her throat was cut.

Never said otherwise, hence the somehow.

Mary resisted her attack with the knife and received defensive wounds.....seems like there was a need to have subdued her first. But he evidently didnt.

But he also evidently killed her quickly; just as quickly and as powerfully as with the other canonical victims, minus Liz. As for subduing, the main reason for his doing so is to presumably control the flow of the blood. Only in Annie's case does it seem like silencing a victim was a factor (signs of asphyxia etc.).

[smezenen]

2. With Mary Kelly, there is no choking evidence...and there is evidence she was resisting while he had a knife in his hands. Thereby contrasting the Ripper 1-2-3 technique. No victim resisted once on the ground semi or fully unconscious. He didnt have a knife in his hands when subduing them, he needed both hands for that. Mary was conscious while a knife was being used by the killer.

Looks like our discussions on 2 different threads are coming together here so i will quickly post the same answer here as i did on the other post then move on to something else.

In DR. Bonds post mortum report for Mary Kelly describes the wounds to her throat as "The neck was cut through the skin and other tissues right down to the vertebrae, the fifth and sixth being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis".

Ecchymosis is a medical term for bruiseing and a distinct bruise tells me she was choked.

so Jack still follows patern 1 choke 2 cut the throat, 3 mutilate.

[perrymason]

But he also evidently killed her quickly; just as quickly and as powerfully as with the other canonical victims, minus Liz. As for subduing, the main reason for his doing so is to presumably control the flow of the blood. Only in Annie's case does it seem like silencing a victim was a factor (signs of asphyxia etc.).

He killed her just as quickly and powerfully as the other Canonicals? Id check the evidence again M & P...he struggled with Mary while using a knife, with all the others excluding Liz, he cut their throats without any resistance from them at all. I cant see how you would claim otherwise.

Since the victims are not dead before the throat cut, it cannot be to just let blood out. It is to kill them...and in the process, as an added benefit, to allow the body blood to drain.

Since neither Polly, Annie or Kate had to be silenced after the subdue phase, it seems his noise control is dealt with by his phase 1 approach. And all outdoor murders were noise sensitive ones.

Yet with Mary, he has the knife at her while she is conscious and awake.

Best regards

[perrymason]

Looks like our discussions on 2 different threads are coming together here so i will quickly post the same answer here as i did on the other post then move on to something else.

In DR. Bonds post mortum report for Mary Kelly describes the wounds to her throat as "The neck was cut through the skin and other tissues right down to the vertebrae, the fifth and sixth being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis".

Ecchymosis is a medical term for bruiseing and a distinct bruise tells me she was choked.

so Jack still follows patern 1 choke 2 cut the throat, 3 mutilate.

There is nothing in the above smezenen that suggests that my suggested phases 1-3 were followed. The "bruising" may have been caused by choking while slashing at her face, or it may have been caused by the force of the slashes at her neck.

Phase 1 fully incapacitates the victim, denying them the opportunity to prevent the death cut or struggle with him when he has a knife in his hands. Is that the case in Marys evidence? No, of course not. She was conscious while he used the knife.

All the best smez.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

He killed her just as quickly and powerfully as the other Canonicals? Id check the evidence again M & P...he struggled with Mary while using a knife, with all the others excluding Liz, he cut their throats without any resistance from them at all. I cant see how you would claim otherwise.

Oh really?

"The neck was cut through the skin and other tissues right down to the vertebrae, the fifth and sixth being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis. The air passage was cut at the lower part of the larynx through the cricoid cartilage."

Mary's throat was cut right down to the vertebrae, just like all the other canonicals with the obvious exception of Liz. That's powerful. And by saying that he killed her quickly, obviously I meant that he slashed her throat quickly, not meaning his apparently having "struggled" with her first.

[perrymason]

Oh really?

"The neck was cut through the skin and other tissues right down to the vertebrae, the fifth and sixth being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis. The air passage was cut at the lower part of the larynx through the cricoid cartilage."

Mary's throat was cut right down to the vertebrae, just like all the other canonicals with the obvious exception of Liz. That's powerful. And by saying that he killed her quickly, obviously I meant that he slashed her throat quickly, not meaning his apparently having "struggled" with her first.

I understand, thats a fair distinction. But I have been alluding to the process seen in priors that suggest the the physical interaction that first takes place is with his hands or a non lethal implement like a garrot of some sort.

That her throat is eventually cut as deeply as the Canonicals I wasnt disputing...just that she is awake and resisting before it occurs and while he has his knife out. Only Liz has that attack methodology, attack with knife...which to me, is amateurish compared with the abdominally mutilated womens murders. The knife was used when they could not resist apparently.

All the best.

[smezenen]

Mike,
I agree with your logic. but I think that we have to take into account the fact that his environment changed. She is already laying down the others where not, she may have been asleep the others where not, doesnt really mater if she is or not he is put off his schedual, he cant get behind her to choke her so he has to do it from the front this time. Choking from the front takes longer she has oppertunity to fight back, he cant quit now or she will turn him in so he has to go all the way, he goes for the knife early. or maybe he diecides to use the knife first this time becouse he cant get behind her, but even then he still has to hold her down and try to quiet her, in other words subdue her (phase 1) he still cuts her throat (phase 2) he still mutilates (phase 3).

[perrymason]

Rather than dueling 2 at once ..Im no Aragorn, I have an analogy that I think explains my position.

The supermarket that you use has all the foods in the same places every week. The same foods as you enter the store, the same ones on shelves as you co through the cashiers. Each week you shop for basically the same items. The checkout cashiers all know you and what you buy...youre a regular. Hell....its a story, so lets say your a great tipper...they all remember you.

One day they find a basket at the counter left by someone, and it has everything that you usually have in your basket, but the things that are on the shelves in the first aisle you normally use are on the top of the basket, the things by the cashiers, the ones that are usually the last items in the basket, are on the bottom.

Do they know that this is your basket based on that evidence? The items are generally the same as what you buy each week, but they are not in the basket according to the logical repetitive manner in which you are known to shop. You enter and leave by the same respective doors each week.

Isnt order an essential part of behaviors? What people do when, how they do it, why they do it. Its the only way to detect patterns...by identifying order.

When Jack the Rippers order is so clearly demonstrated in Mary Ann's, Annie's and Kate's murders, why should we automatically conclude when faced with a shopping basket randomly filled that both shoppers are the same.

My best regards

[smezenen]

great analogy
but it doesnt apply unless you change the part about where the basket is left. in order to fit this situation the basket would have to be left at an outside market instead of the the inside market i usualy shop at. the point im trying to make is that the environment changed he wasnt in his same store he was somewhere different. thats going to effect the way he completes his task.