The Ripper's Signature........

[Malcolm X]

Hi Mal,

Theres little thats seems to fit "Jack" Mal....and tons that doesnt.

Best regards.

hi mike

you're sticking too rigidly to the the ripper's other murders as your main guide to solving this case.... with Mary he's simply switched to an indoor murder.. you believe this is a copycat, so there's little i can say to convince you otherwise, because i've already stated my case above.

this indoor murder requires an adjustment to his M.O and because he's indoors, we see a far more mutilated body than Eddowes, that's the way i see it.

the ripper didn't just enter Millers court at 3am, he was either lurking outside or was Blotchy face, there is no way that he would just stroll down there and break into KELLY'S not knowing if she was even at home..or who even lived there, he stalked her first or was invited in.

Eddowes face was relatively lightly mutilated as was her abdoman, ( not enough time to really make a mess) kelly's facial mutilations are in proportion to her body mutilations...hideous! ( loads of time to make a mess).

i cant see anything that tells me that this isn't JTR.

why Kelly was so badly mutilated simply blows me away, it's beyond comprehension.... especially the legs. it's probably because he's safe indoors and has thus totally indulged himself, it's partial insanity too.

JACK has a semi fixed MO/SIG out on the streets; because he's well aware of the short time available to mutilate, so these murders look similar..... he probably thinks ``right that's enough, time to go``... even if nobody is about to come along.

[Malcolm X]

but did JTR know Kelly? .... i'm not sure, about 50:50.

[Crystal]

I almost think JTR did know Kelly. Assuming he was responsible for her murder, of which I am about 85% sure. I think he's well within his comfort zone in her room - I would think he had been there before.

It could have been a crime of passion made to look like a Ripper job, it can't be ruled out - given the current media coverage. I think that only as a crime of passion does an alternative killer to JTR work here. It appears as if Kelly's killer wanted to erase her physical identity,not just mutilate her.

A logical progression for Jack? A crime of passion by somebody who knew Kelly?
Or both?

I'm not saying it was the Big H - though he has a bit of explai ning to do. Maybe he was just a bystander, like he said. I don't know.

I do think her killer knew Kelly, though, in likelihood. whoever he was.

[Sam Flynn]

I almost think JTR did know Kelly. Assuming he was responsible for her murder, of which I am about 85% sure. I think he's well within his comfort zone in her room - I would think he had been there before.

What marks out 13 Miller's Court as more "comfortable" than any of the other murder sites?

If one had to pick a "comfort zone", it would surely have to be Hanbury Street - for it was there that Jack killed in daylight, and made his escape as those who weren't already well en route to work were getting up en masse to do the same.

[Ben]

Indoor crime scenes are broadly speaking of a lower risk factor than outdoor ones, Gareth, especially if the latter involve busy urban areas with a rather nocturnal population. I'd strongly suggest that Jack targetted outdoor locations for want of more suitable options.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Indoor crime scenes are broadly speaking of a lower risk factor than outdoor ones.

Indeed, Ben, which makes any suggestion of 13 Miller's Court being more of a comfort zone a moot point. Most killers, I'd suggest, would feel far more "comfortable" working indoors than they would in someone else's back yard or the open street, whether they were familiar with that indoor environment or not.

[smezenen]

The indoor/outdoor debate is an interesting thread but it all comes down to the fact that Jack meet MJK outdoors and if she had not INVITED him into her room she would have been killed outside.

Take away the room and MJK is killed outdoors, she isnt mutilated so badly and there is no argument that she is a Ripper victim.

Put the room back in teh picture and she is no longer a Ripper victim?

It doesnt make sence to me that we are putting so much enphasis in this case on the basis that the crime was commited indoors.

[Ben]

it all comes down to the fact that Jack meet MJK outdoors and if she had not INVITED him into her room she would have been killed outside.

We don't know that, Smezenen.

The killer could have entered the room without Kelly knowing and killed her in her sleep, or he could have knocked on Kelly's door and been "invited" in that way.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

The indoor/outdoor debate is an interesting thread but it all comes down to the fact that Jack meet MJK outdoors and if she had not INVITED him into her room she would have been killed outside.

To put it another way (and to put the vexed question of "did Kelly stay in?" aside, for fear of its derailing this thread), if Kelly had been yet another one of those vagrants cast out onto the street with no lodgings to return to, then you're quite possibly right.

Let's face it, Kelly was out on the streets at a time when we know that a killer capable of such atrocities was definitely in the vicinity. On that basis, there may have been an increased chance that somebody was going to meet a sticky end that night. If Kelly hadn't met him first, then we might well be arguing about whether the Ripper knew Elizabeth Prater, or whether Mrs Cox let her killer in. Alternatively, if the killer hadn't ended up in a place like Miller's Court, we might well have had yet another street evisceration on our hands, and there'd be no reason to question the final 20% of the "Canon" at all.

[smezenen]

We don't know that, Smezenen.

The killer could have entered the room without Kelly knowing and killed her in her sleep, or he could have knocked on Kelly's door and been "invited" in that way.

Best regards,
Ben

Ben go to the victims page and read the time line at 2 am she meets a man in the street (that would be outside). Kelly is heard to say "All right, my dear. Come along. You will be comfortable."

She meet him outside and invited him into her room.

[Malcolm X]

did Mary go out again and did Blotchy leave, well; all the brains on this forum cant answer this, only speculate.

1.... due to my experiences as a heavy drinker in my younger years i would say that she didn't go out again, but retired to bed to sleep off her hangover, especially if it was cold and raining outside..because when the booze starts to wear off you feel increadibly lazy...well i used to anyway....

2....pretty drunk at 11.45, blind dunk at 12.10.....similar at 1.15 to 1.30, it depends if she drank any of Blotchy's beer doesn't it... i expect she had at least another 1/2 pint indoors.....collapsed in bed after changing at 1.40 to 1.50am, Blotchy either joined her or left!

3...if she didn't drink indoors, then she maybe went to bed recovering; at about 1.30....if she died at 4am, then she would've been relatively sober but with a hangover.

Kelly was foolish getting so drunk with the ripper close by and Dorset St would've been definitely on his stomping ground... but her biggest mistake was probably singing in her room, because if JTR wasn't Blotchy and he didn't know Kelly either, then this is what attracted him to Millers Court...almost definitely.

common sense tells me that Blotchy face killed her, but this suspect isn't really cunning enough to be JTR, JTR is much more of a lurker/stalker and doesn't like to be seen ``full face`` and at extremely close range... i just dont know what to say.

11.45 is about the right time for JTR to be around.... a wee bit early but not enough to weaken him as a suspect, it's the strong possiblity that he slept with Kelly that we cant avoid...

but even so, i sense that the killer broke in at 4am, due to the full frontal attack/ cut bed sheet etc and maybe a scream of ``oh murder``, this is quite a shift in the Ripper's M.O....... whatever happened Kelly suddenly woke up... i would state this as a fact

my big concern is, if JTR climbed onto the bed to strangle her first (as he does out on the street, strangle first) or leaned over to do it, why didn't Mary wake up WHEN JTR FIRST GOT OUT OF BED 3 minutes earlier to change..because he has to consider; that he might have to make a very quick exit if something goes wrong.... so he wont kill her until he's ready to run out if needed.

this waking up and putting up a brief fight doesn't make sense to me, because it tells me that she saw him launching his attack at range and not waking up with his hands already around his throat.

because if Kelly hadn't woken up as he climbed out of bed, then it's highly likely that she was in a very deep sleep ( due to the booze) and thus highly unlikely to wake up as he was about to kill her.

the ripper had the perfect opportunity to strangle her, he didn't even need to get out of bed to do it, he only needed to wake up at 4am..... this is the Ripper's M.O, he strangles first..........he then gets out of bed, puts his clothes on and slits her throat....... but no, she saw him attacking from range.

JTR with her all night and her suddenly waking up really bugs me, it doesn't make sense at all.

my guess is JTR broke in, Mary felt the draught of the open door and maybe heard the door squeaking open.

[perrymason]

Indoor crime scenes are broadly speaking of a lower risk factor than outdoor ones, Gareth, especially if the latter involve busy urban areas with a rather nocturnal population. I'd strongly suggest that Jack targetted outdoor locations for want of more suitable options.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

Hope your weekend is going well. On the part in bold above, thats one possible interpretation, and its only valid based on a single "Ripper" victim in five being killed anywhere but outdoors. With the inclusion of Mary a few such possibilities open up,.....but its not like that they match previously seen behaviors and/or traits.

I think Jack went out for certain types of women, and none of them had a room...it makes them vulnerable to him prowling at night,...one of them was possibly asleep when they met Jack, ...and we cannot be sure she met her killer while we suspect she was soliciting. Like we can be fairly sure of with Polly, we are sure of with Annie, and its likely the case with Catherine too.

Jack killed the women where he found them, and while they worked,... and homeless street whores without bed money wouldnt be found in tiny courtyards after 3am. Sleeping women would be.

The truth is that the inclusion of Mary Kelly presupposes things like his preferred venues and attack commencement shown in 3 almost identical murders was nothing more than a situation forced upon him. Well.....we know that within Millers Court alone there were a few "whores" he could have got at.....as there were in courts across the East End. He had options to do this from the very start of his "spree".....he always had options. But he killed them outdoors anyway. Cause thats where the homeless ones were.

All the best Ben

[perrymason]

Let's face it, Kelly was out on the streets at a time when we know that a killer capable of such atrocities was definitely in the vicinity. On that basis, there may have been an increased chance that somebody was going to meet a sticky end that night.

And that pre-supposes that despite the lack of any accredited evidence that might suggest Mary ever left her room after arriving home at 11:45am, she did anyway.

Women without rooms, beds, perhaps nightclothes to sleep in or fires to warm themselves by were his prey. They ran the risk of meeting Jack during that period.

Not sleeping women in small courtyards, undressed and in their own beds. Since Mary's addition makes her the only such victim attributed to Jack....that seems borne out in the evidence available.

Best regards Sam.

[Ben]

Jack killed the women where he found them

That's true, Mike.

But that needn't indicate a preference so much as a lack of better options. If he had private accomodation, he might well have taken his victims there, for all we know. Gacy, Dahmer and Nielsen did. The same is true of his victim-type. Rather than seeking a particular type or look in a female victim, it would seem more likely that they were simply the most readily available victims of opportunity.

Well.....we know that within Millers Court alone there were a few "whores" he could have got at

We don't know that, Mike, and there's no evidence that he knew it either. The vast majority of prostitutes in the district lived in lodging houses of one type or another, and the few that didn't were likely to have at least one companion living with them. In reality, he would have been quite fortunate to encounter a Kelly-esque domestic set-up.

Have an enjoyable weekend thanks, mate!

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

That's true, Mike.

But that needn't indicate a preference so much as a lack of better options. If he had private accomodation, he might well have taken his victims there, for all we know. Gacy, Dahmer and Nielsen did. The same is true of his victim-type. Rather than seeking a particular type or look in a female victim, it would seem more likely that they were simply the most readily available victims of opportunity.

We don't know that, Mike, and there's no evidence that he knew it either. The vast majority of prostitutes in the district lived in lodging houses of one type or another, and the few that didn't were likely to have at least one companion living with them. In reality, he would have been quite fortunate to encounter a Kelly-esque domestic set-up.

Have an enjoyable weekend thanks, mate!

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

The benefit that I can see immediately to outdoor venues while the women worked is this Ben.....neutrality. For him, for them.....remember few of these women were even identified easily because they were homeless.

No links to his home, their lodging house, or any personal connection he might have had with a victim.

He was impersonal. So should the venue be.

Mary was killed by someone in a very personal manner....in bed, undressed, in a room of her own, perhaps while sleeping. Some specific wounds suggest a possible personal link...the facial destruction, and the choice of a heart rather than the womb that he wanted from the others it seems.

One factor we can use to query this as a Ripper crime is the nature of the new venue and its possible context.

There is very little that is insignificant with the argument on her viability....her state at the time, the location, the resulting wounds inflicted...any differences in any of those areas to previously attributed Ripper murders is relevant and needs to be factored in for that assessment.

Cheers Ben, nice catching you on here at the same time.