The Use of the Knife

[perrymason]

I suppose your comments on the wire probability make sense Sam.....I did like the idea though because it would deal with the "silent" attack, the lowering without struggle and the throat cut itself.

So your question isnt easily answerable....how the cuts were actually executed...pardon the pun...to create "circular" wounds. Standing doesnt work....we dont have the blood evidence that suggests that in most cases, ...and on at least 3 victims the opinion was it was done when the victims were lying down. With the severity of some cuts the head would literally hang, held by the spinal column and/or some tissue not severed, ..on a standing victim.

What does seem to be clear though is that some of the Canonical murders began with some form of physical intervention rather than weapon usage. The knife was first used when the victim was incapable of putting up a defense and lying down,.. but in 2 Canonical cases, the weapon is used during the initial attack phase.

I think those are important features....and the man that Ripped his women open defeated them in physical combat before even using a knife.

Best regards Gareth.

[Sam Flynn]

Standing doesnt work....we dont have the blood evidence that suggests that in most cases.

I'm not entirely sure what that evidence would look like, Mike. Wouldn't the bulk of the blood tend to spray at right-angles from the left side of the neck - away over the victim's left shoulder, rather than down her front, as some have suggested?

[perrymason]

I'm not entirely sure what that evidence would look like, Mike. Wouldn't the bulk of the blood tend to spray at right-angles from the left side of the neck - away over the victim's left shoulder, rather than down her front, as some have suggested?

It seems to me that gravity addresses that issue Sam, none had any blood on front their clothing...and yet some had the back of their clothing, blood saturated. You would have spray, but also spurts and oozing....none of that made it to the front of their clothing....which seems to indicate to me that they were horizontal when cut.

But heres one for you.....purely speculative, were they facing up or down when he cuts them?

All the best Sam

[Sam Flynn]

It seems to me that gravity addresses that issue Sam, none had any blood on front their clothing...and yet some had the back of their clothing, blood saturated.

I've addressed the "front of clothing" bit, I think, Mike. I wouldn't expect to see too much blood there, anymore than I'd expect to see much water on the upright stem of a lawn sprinkler. As to the blood on the back - he lowered them to the ground, where there would have been blood, and their necks would have continued to ooze after he'd deposited them there.

But heres one for you.....purely speculative, were they facing up or down when he cuts them?

They may have been facing forward, if they were upright(ish) when the coup de grace was inflicted Otherwise, upwards - the throat wounds commenced on the left, and that's the side on which most of the blood tended to jet/flow. If he'd flipped them over after they'd been face downwards, we'd have seen more blood on the contralateral side to where the throat wounds commenced.

[Malcolm X]

It seems to me that gravity addresses that issue Sam, none had any blood on front their clothing...and yet some had the back of their clothing, blood saturated. You would have spray, but also spurts and oozing....none of that made it to the front of their clothing....which seems to indicate to me that they were horizontal when cut.

But heres one for you.....purely speculative, were they facing up or down when he cuts them?

All the best Sam

on their backs looking up at the sky, as a quick guess and not being able to do any research ( because i'm at work ) but Stride, more likely cut while being pulled over, ending up maybe on her side

[The Good Michael]

Just to add more doubt and confusion: If the killer had cut while the victim was on the ground, and immediately turned her over, blood would still have been running out her neck and we'd have seen quite a bit of blood pooling on the upper chest and on the face. We don't see that. Initial arterial spray from the standing position would have jetted out from the women. By simply holding the victim with her leaning a bit forward, and waiting for the life to ebb away, I should think much of the blood would be drained before placing her on the ground. Depending on how the victim was supported in the process, slumping forward may have been the most natural thing.

Cheers,

Mike

[Malcolm X]

my guess is he strangled them first, lay then down looking up at the sky and then cut them, but it's very hard to tell either way, but if standing up or close to vertical, then expect to see blood dribbling down onto the left shoulder, breast area too..........but this didn't happen, so blood sprayed out to the left and dribbled down onto the ground.

[perrymason]

There are many possibilities as to how exactly he cuts them, how he gets them on the ground,..but as per the thread premise, is subduing the victims before even using a knife a fair differentiator in these murders?

There is an indication that the majority of the Canonicals were attacked without a knife...and cut when compliant. You need 2 hands to strangle or choke them, and yet we see evidence that 2 victims were cut while fighting with the man. In Liz's case there may be no phases or steps at all,... one grab of the scarf, twist, slice while falling and drop. He held his knife while doing that likely.

I believe its unusual for a knife killer to first attack without using a knife.

Best regards all.

[Malcolm X]

There are many possibilities as to how exactly he cuts them, how he gets them on the ground,..but as per the thread premise, is subduing the victims before even using a knife a fair differentiator in these murders?


Best regards all.

yes i think it is, i think he subdued them first.........but Stride might not be a ripper victim and Kelly is something else that really needs another thread..

attacking with a knife in his hand means the victim will scream loudly when she sees it and this he must avoid at all costs and i dont think he punched them to wind them, i think he chatted them up as a friendly punter and then suddenly strangled them....when the coast was clear to do so, or when they lead him somewhere quiet/convenient i.e Eddowes/chapman..

his priority would be no noise and no blood on his clothing.

[perrymason]

his priority would be no noise and no blood on his clothing.

BINGO. The man thought about what he was doing. He didnt start out slashing...like Marys killer did...he didnt start out stabbing...like Marthas killer did....he didnt just attack and cut....like Liz Strides killer did.......

He thought about the best way to avoid detection and/or mess before he even pulls a knife out. Quiet...and minimum chance for blood on him.

Thats a man that is killing coldly....the act itself of taking a life is less a concern to him than his being caught at it.

That lack of empathy or emotion is part of what I was getting at. He doesnt even kill them while they are conscious it seems...to look into their eyes as they die,.. many killers later describe as their high point.

He knows what he wants to do....and he knows he risks losing his freedom if he is caught. So he thinks about how he goes about things....and only uses the knife when they cannot fend him off anymore.

Cheers Mal.

[Malcolm X]

BINGO. The man thought about what he was doing. He didnt start out slashing...like Marys killer did...he didnt start out stabbing...like Marthas killer did....he didnt just attack and cut....like Liz Strides killer did.......

He thought about the best way to avoid detection and/or mess before he even pulls a knife out. Quiet...and minimum chance for blood on him.

Thats a man that is killing coldly....the act itself of taking a life is less a concern to him than his being caught at it.

That lack of empathy or emotion is part of what I was getting at. He doesnt even kill them while they are conscious it seems...to look into their eyes as they die,.. many killers later describe as their high point.

He knows what he wants to do....and he knows he risks losing his freedom if he is caught. So he thinks about how he goes about things....and only uses the knife when they cannot fend him off anymore.

Cheers Mal.

JTR was not and has never been in my eye, a sexual sadist, he has no interest in any form of S&M, he is actually a very tame and compassionate killer, if there can be such a thing............ he kills efficiently and quickly, believe me; i've studied quite a few of those violent S & M Websites, Jack is totally and utterly tame in comparison to them.......

his mutilations are post mortem, but their similar mutilations ( on those websites) are while the victim is still alive, we dont want to go there in our minds, but members here must know that.

he is interested in..........well, we dont know for sure, it's like Ed Gein or similar.........who knows

these murders also have Occult connections too, they're very similar to human sacrafices from Africa and from the Carribean...flipping heck; very similar

[Malcolm X]

i'm also having trouble detecting JTR's signature

i quote:-

``Two retired NYC detectives, Kevin Gannon and Anthony Duarte, have been trying to solve “Smiley Face” murder mystery for the past 11 years, connecting the drowning deaths of 40 young man across the country. In a number of cases, the detectives have reportedly found “a smiley face” caricature near the crime scenes thereby giving it the Smily Face Killer theory. It has been suggested that the smiley face “Signatures are ritualistic crime scene behaviors that are done for psycho sexual gratification.”

signatures are most noticed in Hollywood films, i.e the moth in Silence of the Lamds, but in real life they're much harder to detect, or not present at all...........what we notice is the Ripper's M.O, which does not reveal a sexual sadist or rage/hatred....you see no beatings, torture or rape/ forced sex first, they die quickly and efficiently, his main priority is to avoid detection and to arouse no suspicion.

the closest to a signature is the GST, but i could be wrong about this because he might not have one

the use of his knife is a means to an end/ mutilation and organ removal, it's his tool of the trade, this might seem incorrect to many members here, because thrown into this ``soup`` is his disturbed mind as well, which makes it seem that he's toying with his knife in a sadistic way...especially EDDOWES/KELLY.........he isn't, he's in a type of really bizarre trance, it's most odd, he's starting to mutilate the body in a calm mood and then sinking into his own mind....crazy crazy thoughts, he then suddenly snaps out of it and thinks, ``that's enough, time to get out of here, it looks like there's a policeman comming down that passageway, i'll just rip off a bit of her apron first``

Mary's murder needs a new thread in a few days time Perrymason, because something went wrong or a shift in M.O

[Eastender]

I think its just possible, that having subdued his victim, he cut her throat and slightly rotated her body. Cobbled streets have quite a steep gradient from middle to edge, and just a couple of inches would be enough to speed up the bleeding. Also they were habitual drinkers and probably 'bled out' very quickly.

[perrymason]

I think its just possible, that having subdued his victim, he cut her throat and slightly rotated her body. Cobbled streets have quite a steep gradient from middle to edge, and just a couple of inches would be enough to speed up the bleeding. Also they were habitual drinkers and probably 'bled out' very quickly.

I believe only Kate had some issue with her heart in her lifetime, so they were basically healthy and I agree,..that combined with thin blood from poor diet and a lack of nutrients they would drain pretty quickly.

I think this step shows a sophistication in the methodology. He thinks about the death stroke and the blood letting as a preliminary action. He considers ways to avoid blood while draining it from them. And this is after he has them under his control and unable to resist....without a knife.

Thats Steps. Step 1, He subdues physically while suppressing struggle and noise, and once complete, he proceeds to Step 2, the Kill and Drain,...spreads her legs, rolls up his sleeves and begins the 3rd Step......the mutilations. Followed by an exit perhaps with some strategy involved...no "running man" from the scene stuff here.

In Kates case, he does the above and all he does to Kate, in at the very most 8 minutes total, if Lawende saw Kate.

Maybe this Knife thread belongs as a tangent to another idea about this killer....because I believe that this is an Organized Killer I'm speaking of.

Best regards

[AmandaG]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but does anyone know if the same type of knife was used in all of/some of the killings or were different knives used in each one?

And, could he have stabbed them in the neck, leaving the knife in for a few seconds to release some blood, then slice across the neck so that there wouldn't be as much spray?