The Use of the Knife

[Mascara & Paranoia]

For one, how is it he finds himself in a womans room to start this murder-mutilation to begin with? Him even being there is uncharacteristic.

But is it? Mary's the only canonical victim of his to have had a room. If Kate had one of her own and invited Jack in for business, I'm sure we'd be seeing similar results.

Then you have the consciousness of the woman when he first uses his knife.

That doesn't matter, all Jack would have to do is be quick. Subduing Mary would've been unnecessary in her case.

Hi again,

To take the last point first, I think smezenen that the bruising could easily have come from the struggle, or his hand or the knife as it slashed across her. The sheets did show some indication that he may have covered her face....they were cut and bloodied. Its possible he might have tried to pull a sheet tight around her throat I suppose.

The thing is, she was awake and resisting,...and if she was sleeping just before the attack...he still has his knife in his hand. I dont believe as I said that the knife comes out until the throat is to be cut...after they cannot resist.

I think on the MO question M & P, that you have conflicting platforms to start with....MO vs Signature. Although the Signatures are thought to remain consistent, the MO may change, as you suggest, based on the environment and situation that night. Thats not exactly the full story though, because some Signature characteristics can also be regularly seen in the MO used. For one, how is it he finds himself in a womans room to start this murder-mutilation to begin with? Him even being there is uncharacteristic. Then you have the consciousness of the woman when he first uses his knife.

Best regards

[smezenen]

Asleep isnt the same as unconscious...

???????
I would beg to differ on that statement. I will however conceed the point to you. Asleep and choked would produce different levels of unconsiousnes.

If he gets her while asleep in the choke hold, then he has nothing to worry about from that point on, she cant wake up and resist...so, nothing other than getting caught.

OK, lets go with your theory he tries to choke her first.
She is laying on the bed. So in order to choke her this time he would have to do it while being leaned over her body instead of behind her.
lets next assume he is using his hands to choke her (becouse he probably doesnt have any advanced training in hand-to-hand combat).

It is much less effective to choke from the front using only the hands, from behind you use the forarms and biceps producing more pressure over a greater area which not only cuts off the air but the flow of blood to the brain. It takes much longer to achieve uconciouseness using a front choke becose you cant produce the same preasure over a large area.

I would hazard a guess at this point that trying to choke her may be what woke her up.

I just went back and read the post mortum by Dr. Thomas Bond and found there is evidence that choking may have occured. Dr Bond while describing the wounds to the neck stated "The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis". Ecchymosis is defined as the skin discoloration caused by the escape of blood into the tissues from ruptured blood vessels. In laymens terms, a bruise.
So now we have all three phases being used in this killing just as they are in the first four. Phase 1 choke, Phase 2 cut the throat, Phase 3 mutilate.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

That point in bold is an important one here....are things omitted or included based on the environment in the last attributed kill? Does this killer not do certain things we have seen him do, and do lots of things we have never seen him do, based on the new environment?

Not just the last kill, the venues affected the majority of his kills I'd wager. That and, most importantly, escalation.

Polly was killed in a street and she was just opened up, Annie was killed in the privacy of a backyard and became the trademark Ripper victim, and Kate was killed under circumstances of both the prior victims and had more done to her than we'd seen previously, but at the expense of botching things up a bit, namely because he was obviously rushing. He was rushing because of the environment that he had to work in, yet at the same time he was escalating his handiwork beyond what he'd ever done before.

With Mary, Jack had a great deal of privacy on his side and he didn't have to work within such a tight timeframe, and he continued to escalate further.

My feeling is this....in Jack the Ripper murders the elements we see are preferential. They repeat. Consistently. If Liz Stride was set aside for a moment....look carefully at those 3 kills...as consecutive murders.

Exactly.

I think the way Jack kills is as important to him as why he kills in the first place, I think he felt safer outside rather than indoors...and I dont believe that he would temporarily suspend his MO based solely on that room. Id believe he went looking for a working target outdoors that night, and not be likely to find one inside the tiny courtyard of Millers Court after 3am.

But why would Jack use parts of his MO if they weren't necessary? It's not like he'd ask Mary to get up out of bed just so he can subdue her to the floor of her room and then do his work there. She was already in a lying position (or thereabouts) and on a bed. He probably had easier access to her corpse than he would've done crouching at her side like with the other victims.

The whole point of the choke is to render the victim unconscious. He didnt choke them to death he used his knife for the kill. If she was asleep (already unconscious) he need not choke her.

Asleep isnt the same as unconscious...its a state that can be changed in a milisecond. If he takes the chance there that she will stay asleep and not resist....well, it seems he blew that one didnt he? She did resist. She woke, if asleep.

If he gets her while asleep in the choke hold, then he has nothing to worry about from that point on, she cant wake up and resist...so, nothing other than getting caught.

Which to me says if he opted to take the chance that she might wake, thats not the type of profile for the man that killed some of the other canonicals. He didnt take the chance of resistance when he had his knife out...they were on the ground unconscious. He didnt take the chance he could sever both arteries with a semi deep cut...he almost decapitates them to be sure they are dead. He likes to feel in control...struggling with a knife in his hand with a victim doesnt fit the Rippers control needs, to my eye anyway.

Best regards.

[smezenen]

Sorry If I misread your statement Smez....I do see that the assumption she was asleep I must have missed first read...but even if the case was that she was asleep, why not still do the choke hold in case she wakes up....and if she was asleep in actuality, she evidently did wake...she used her left arm to fend off the knife.

Best regards

The whole point of the choke is to render the victim unconscious. He didnt choke them to death he used his knife for the kill. If she was asleep (already unconscious) he need not choke her.

The choke hold theory works best with Nichols' murder, given the bruising of her jaw as though her chin had been forcibly lifted (I'd hazard a guess whilst the killer was behind [or at the side of] her) so he could get at her throat with his blade. Chapman was likely strangled 'properly' as to silenced her whilst lowering her on the ground to cut her throat. Eddowes... I'm not sure she was strangled. There wasn't any sign of bruising or of asphyxia having taken place (that I remember), so I can only assume she had her throat cut whilst she was caught completely offguard somehow. As for Kelly, of course she wouldn't be strangled, why would the Ripper need to? All he'd have to do is take her unexpectedly, which he apparently did. She wasn't standing up like the other victims, she wasn't outside, so the other parts of the Ripper's m.o. (other than the throat-slashing) needn't have been used.

That point in bold is an important one here....are things omitted or included based on the environment in the last attributed kill? Does this killer not do certain things we have seen him do, and do lots of things we have never seen him do, based on the new environment?

My feeling is this....in Jack the Ripper murders the elements we see are preferential. They repeat. Consistently. If Liz Stride was set aside for a moment....look carefully at those 3 kills...as consecutive murders.

I think the way Jack kills is as important to him as why he kills in the first place, I think he felt safer outside rather than indoors...and I dont believe that he would temporarily suspend his MO based solely on that room. Id believe he went looking for a working target outdoors that night, and not be likely to find one inside the tiny courtyard of Millers Court after 3am.

Sorry If I misread your statement Smez....I do see that the assumption she was asleep I must have missed first read...but even if the case was that she was asleep, why not still do the choke hold in case she wakes up....and if she was asleep in actuality, she evidently did wake...she used her left arm to fend off the knife.

Any ideas that help point out the very different circumstances of this kill night are welcome as far as Im concerned.

Best regards

[Mascara & Paranoia]

The choke hold theory works best with Nichols' murder, given the bruising of her jaw as though her chin had been forcibly lifted (I'd hazard a guess whilst the killer was behind [or at the side of] her) so he could get at her throat with his blade. Chapman was likely strangled 'properly' as to silenced her whilst lowering her on the ground to cut her throat. Eddowes... I'm not sure she was strangled. There wasn't any sign of bruising or of asphyxia having taken place (that I remember), so I can only assume she had her throat cut whilst she was caught completely offguard somehow. As for Kelly, of course she wouldn't be strangled, why would the Ripper need to? All he'd have to do is take her unexpectedly, which he apparently did. She wasn't standing up like the other victims, she wasn't outside, so the other parts of the Ripper's m.o. (other than the throat-slashing) needn't have been used.

[smezenen]

I agree with you totaly. I think we can plainly see his strangulation signature in 4 of the C5.
Re-read the last paragraph of my previouse post. Again I think he intended to do her in the same manner as the rest at a different, outside location. he meets her outside but instead of taking her to a dark side street, ally, or yard she takes him inside, this throws him off his game and changes the phases.
If jack thinks she is asleep he may not feel the need to subdue her any farther before cutting her throat so he goes straight to phase 2. I believe thats why we dont see his signature strangulation in Mary kelly.

Hi smezenen,

I like the choke hold conjeture because that fits right into the premise of the thread...he subdues them before even drawing his knife. Your idea with Kelly however does not contain that logic....instead he retrieves his blade before she is subdued and slashes at her with a knife as a means to subdue and kill while still in the same phase.

The thread was meant to suggest that there are phases in Jack The Rippers kills....and by the ones within the Canon that I can easily as one mans trail of death....there are 3 distinct phases when he gets them alone and only the last 2 are with a knife.

1, he subdues fully, they are on the ground not resisting....2, then he draws his knife and kills, and 3, he mutilates the midsections. I believe that this occurs because he need 2 hands to subdue them in the effective manner he uses.

Liz Stride is subdued, killed and abandoned in a single Phase, and Marys 1st phase starts off with knife slashes.

Best regards smez.

[smezenen]

Just hazarding a guess...that they were down and un-messed is for me one of the most perplexing elements...how the hell does he go about this? And why would he engage them without using a weapon at the same time? Why did he seemingly have to defeat them first?

Best regards all.

I addressed this in another thread with this theory:
It is my understanding that prostitutes and their Johns, or in this case Jacks, often engaged in anal intercourse from a standing position. This is, I believe I read someplace, due to the sanitary conditions of the streets and also because the prostitute didn’t want to risk pregnancy. I believe these points lead to the strongest possibility that he did it from behind. If that is the case how did he silence and kill them so quickly? Here is my opinion; Brazilian Jujitsu teaches many possible choke holds that could accomplish this. Take for instance the Rear Naked Choke, applied from behind on an exposed/naked throat. This hold when properly applied cuts off air to the lungs and blood to the brain and can render a victim unconscious in only a few seconds. It also has the added benefit for Jack in that it will silence the victim immediately. The only noises made would be about 3 seconds of scuffling before the victim passed out. At this point our boy is free to continue the choke to induce death (only takes about 30 seconds) or simply lay the victim down and finish the job with his knife. Also if applied quickly before the victim realized what was happening, this type of choke hold would usually not produce much if any bruising or marking at all. If however the victim (Polly Nichols possibly) where able to prevent the hold from being applied properly it would create strangulation marks but still be very effective. I’m not saying jack was a student of Brazilian Jujitsu and in fact the discipline was not even around during his lifetime. It does however prove that it’s possible to kill very quickly and very quietly from behind.

In the case of Mary Kelly I think he meets her outside and intends to do her the same as the other victims but she invites him inside and that changes things. Now he has a more secure and private setting he can take his time. She is laying in bed and he cant get behind her so he waits until he thinks she is asleep then gets up to get his knife, while he is getting back on the bed she wakes, sees the knife, he attacks and she struggles a bit even screaming out Murder 2 or 3 times (heard by Elizabeth Prater between 3:30 and 4:00).

[Mascara & Paranoia]

It's probable he used a different blade, but he only ever used a strikingly different type of blade when he killed Stride, and Stride only. Whichs begs a few questions...

[AmandaG]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but does anyone know if the same type of knife was used in all of/some of the killings or were different knives used in each one?

And, could he have stabbed them in the neck, leaving the knife in for a few seconds to release some blood, then slice across the neck so that there wouldn't be as much spray?

I think its just possible, that having subdued his victim, he cut her throat and slightly rotated her body. Cobbled streets have quite a steep gradient from middle to edge, and just a couple of inches would be enough to speed up the bleeding. Also they were habitual drinkers and probably 'bled out' very quickly.

I believe only Kate had some issue with her heart in her lifetime, so they were basically healthy and I agree,..that combined with thin blood from poor diet and a lack of nutrients they would drain pretty quickly.

I think this step shows a sophistication in the methodology. He thinks about the death stroke and the blood letting as a preliminary action. He considers ways to avoid blood while draining it from them. And this is after he has them under his control and unable to resist....without a knife.

Thats Steps. Step 1, He subdues physically while suppressing struggle and noise, and once complete, he proceeds to Step 2, the Kill and Drain,...spreads her legs, rolls up his sleeves and begins the 3rd Step......the mutilations. Followed by an exit perhaps with some strategy involved...no "running man" from the scene stuff here.

In Kates case, he does the above and all he does to Kate, in at the very most 8 minutes total, if Lawende saw Kate.

Maybe this Knife thread belongs as a tangent to another idea about this killer....because I believe that this is an Organized Killer I'm speaking of.

Best regards

[Eastender]

I think its just possible, that having subdued his victim, he cut her throat and slightly rotated her body. Cobbled streets have quite a steep gradient from middle to edge, and just a couple of inches would be enough to speed up the bleeding. Also they were habitual drinkers and probably 'bled out' very quickly.