What would JtR do after Kelly?

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Grim,

Dr. T was called a herb doctor.

But back to the question, what would the Ripper do next? Well, if it was Tumblety, he took a boat. Bury killed his wife, Druitt commited suicide. Kosminski went to asylum. James Kelly stayed out of asylum. There as many answers as there are suspects.

Roy

[Grim]

Roy,

Putting a side a specific supsect for the moment, the original poster was enquiring what our opinions were if JTR was to contemplate another kill after MJK.

This is of course if we are to accept the fact that MJK was indeed a ripper victim, which I believe she was.

So how does a killer top the level of violence displayed in the MJK killing?

What would he do next in terms of planning his next kill?

[Ben]

So you are saying Tumbelty wasn't a genuine doctor?

No, I'm saying that based on the evidence from the British Medical Journal, the doctor referred to therein cannot have been Tumblety.

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,

It wasn't a "doctor" in inverted commas, but a genuine doctor of very high repute according to the British Medical Journal. Certainly not Tumblety. As circumstatial evidence for Tumblety's complicity in these crimes are concenered, the "teaching hospitals" detail doesn't apply in the slightest, I'm afraid.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

The details we have on Tumblety show that in his time, he must have been respected somewhat...if not for his medical acumen which we now know involved no formal training and so could only have come from his experiences cleaning operating rooms,..but for amassing a fortune selling Snake Oil remedies. He was at least a good salesman...and successful financially

He could easily have represented himself as a prominent and successful based on his attire, and somewhat knowledgeable by virtue of his claims of a formal education back in America...that we now know he never had.

Sorry Ben, that single confirmed story doesnt eliminate Tumblety because we know he was unskilled...a "reputation" in those days didnt require carrying a diploma around with you...and its a story that is potentially germaine to some of the Ripper murder investigations, as its within a year of the story that 2 murdered women have their uterus taken from them after death. The story that has been discreditted regarding his uteri collection was so categorized because of the credibility of the source who gave the story...and that made his tale suspect. That means that we cant assume the story is correct....but neither can we prove it was not.

Acquiring Female Abdominal Organs was something the Coroner of Pollys and Annies Inquests mentioned as possible motives for the murders themselves.

I know you dont believe he was anything but a poor, crazy local Joe...but that belief is inconsistent with the comments medical officials made as to his probable knowledge of anatomy and knife skills on those murders mentioned. If he had a job as a Slaughter house employee...that could be the answer, but thats a man with a job and some skills, not a local poor crazy man without any of those things. And it doesnt explain why a uterus is chosen twice in a row.

The Pizer-type model didnt pan out well as I recall..and it still leaves many questions as to his possible abilities that were mentioned by the medical authorities. Bond himself excluded Alice because she didnt show signs that her killer knew what Polly or Annie's knew in terms of anatomy or knife dexterity and skill.

You may not embrace the possibility yourself Ben, but thats hardly a justification for ignoring all the evidence that suggests the man that attacked some of the Canonicals targeted the uterus and perhaps other abdominal organs. Because some Canonical victims do not have that suggestion present in opinion or evidence...that doesnt mean that the other qualified opinions regarding some other deaths were incorrect.

In the case of Polly and Annie, there was professional and reputable opinion that the killer may have wanted to obtain uteri.. and perhaps other organs in the same area of the body.

That makes the story that was not discreditted a potentially viable motive in at least 2 Canonical Deaths....and with the sum that was offered for the sample from The Teaching Hospital, 20L, you have approx $1500 L Sterling in todays money on the line for a single sample. Bringing anyone into the picture who was desperate for money, had the skills required, and the cold heart needed to kill the donors first.

He was mentioned by Littlechild, he was held on suspicion of the crimes, and the American Press were covering his police issues regarding the Whitechapel Murder investigation, not his Indecency charges.

Hes viable.....moreso than most of the alleged suspects.

Best regards Ben

[c.d.]

So you are saying Tumbelty wasn't a genuine doctor? What gave you that absurd idea?

Hi Grim,

Tumblety had no medical education, no medical training and held no medical degree from an accredited medical school. Therefore, he was not a doctor.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Sorry Ben, that single confirmed story doesnt eliminate Tumblety because we know he was unskilled

I'm not "eliminating" Tumbelty per se. I'm just saying that he could not have been the high-credentials organ-seeking doctor referred to by the British Medical Journal. There is absolutely no possibility that Tumblety could have been confused with such an obviously reputable individual.

I know you dont believe he was anything but a poor, crazy local Joe...but that belief is inconsistent with the comments medical officials made as to his probable knowledge of anatomy and knife skills on those murders mentioned.

Uhhh....no, Mike.

My belief that the killer was a local Joe ("crazy" or not) is very consistent with the preponderance of medical evidence to have emerged from the investigation.

If he had a job as a Slaughter house employee...that could be the answer, but thats a man with a job and some skills, not a local poor crazy man without any of those things

Absolutely not.

The weight of medical opinion suggests that he could very easily have been a "local poor crazy man without any of those things".

The Pizer-type model didnt pan out well as I recall

You don't recall correctly, I'm afraid. Pizer himself didn't pan out well, but the "Pizer-type model" is still very much up for grabs. I don't understand your argument that a "local man" argument wouldn't "explain" why a uterus was chosen twice in a row...? I don't even believe the evidence permits us to conclude that the uterus was "chosen", specifically.

Bond himself excluded Alice because she didnt show signs that her killer knew what Polly or Annie's knew in terms of anatomy or knife dexterity and skill

Bond said nothing of "dexterity" or "anatomy". He mentioned "skill" in cutting a throat, and I don't dispute that observation at all. Knife skills could easily have been acquired on the job itself; by habitually murdering prostitutes and becoming more skilled at it through practice - not at odds with a "local Joe" in the slightest, and certainly not at odds with his view that the killer had no anamotical knowledge whatsoever. He didn't "exclude" McKenzie from the series, incidentally. Quite the reverse.

That makes the story that was not discreditted a potentially viable motive in at least 2 Canonical Deaths

Given the dubious nature of the source, it counts as "discredited" in my book. As far as I'm concerned, it's nonsense from beginning to end, and even its instigator, Wynne Baxter, refrained from mentioning it after it was refuted by the British Medical Journal. Many other serial killers have eviserated their victims since JTR, and none of them did so on behalf of a wealthy organ-collector!

Hes viable.....moreso than most of the alleged suspects

Not really.

Best regards,
Ben

[smezenen]

Not many believe that the torso killing where Jacks but, and this is only my opinion, if you follow a natural progression of violence then dismemberment would probably follow disembowlment. What more horrific thing can you do. it also show another step on the learning curve, scattering the parts hinders the investigation. he body is not easily identifiable in those days without a head.