Three cases of interruption?

[Ben]

Both are stated to be gone by 12:46 approximately Ben.

That's the just the problem, Mike - "approximately".

12:46 just isn't very "approximate". It's very precise. Schwartz estimated that he turned onto Berner Street at 12:45, which meant he would have arrived at the murder spot a few minutes later. If the killer then dispatched Stride quickly out of fear that Schwartz and/or Pipeman were running off in search of a policeman on beat, it would mean he killed her between 12:46 and 12:56, i.e. when Dr. Blackwell believed she died.

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

It seems like when you don't want Jack to be her killer he has no time at all in which to commit the murder, yet when you want Jack to be her killer but not mutilate her he has all the time in the world. It can't be both ways.

As for possible interruptions we are not limited by any means to Diemschutz. If somebody came out of the club to take a leak (a reasonable possibility) where would we have evidence for that? Maybe Jack heard a door slam. Again, would there be evidence for that?

c.d.

Well... then you have one or possibly two men who were at the club that didnt tell the truth when asked what they were doing from 12:45 to 1am...and if they were in the yard at all.

I dont want or have it both ways at all cd....she is cut between 12:46am and 12:56am using the timing suggested by the Senior Medical Man attending on site at 1:16am. Thats 1 minute after Schwartz and Pipeman are leaving or have left, and 14 minutes before Diemshutz pulls in.

You agree with Fisherman that there is no evidence to suggest an interruption....and you disagree with me that there is no evidence of an interruption. Maybe the source of information is your criteria on whats believable, because you seem to be able to accept the known facts here...but not that evidence is lacking to even make the suggestion in the first place.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Possible sources of interruption in the Stride case:

Schwartz
Pipeman
Leon Goldstein
Krantz

Mrs. Diemschutz said Morris Eagle was the last person to come in the side door, so I don't think anyone went out to urinate prior to the discovery of the body.

There's also the very real possibility that the Ripper was never disturbed here. He may have chose to leave or may have left home that night intending to kill two women. If this were the case, it stands to reason he'd want his hands clean following the first. Keep in mind that Eddowes was killed much earlier in the night than Nichols, Chapman or Kelly. This might be an indicator that he went to work earlier that night for a reason - to kill two women.

As I've pointed out numerous times before, Immediately following the Chapman murder, there were two sensational rumors - that the Ripper killed two women in one night and left graffiti at/near the scene of one of the crimes. The next time the Ripper went out, both of these came true.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"The next time the Ripper went out, both of these came true"

Ehrrm, Tom - we actually don´t know that. It´s a contention of yours, but not all of the rest out here would agree.

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

I dont want or have it both ways at all cd....she is cut between 12:46am and 12:56am using the timing suggested by the Senior Medical Man attending on site at 1:16am. Thats 1 minute after Schwartz and Pipeman are leaving or have left, and 14 minutes before Diemshutz pulls in.

You agree with Fisherman that there is no evidence to suggest an interruption....and you disagree with me that there is no evidence of an interruption. Maybe the source of information is your criteria on whats believable, because you seem to be able to accept the known facts here...but not that evidence is lacking to even make the suggestion in the first place.

Hi Michael,

I think "timing suggested" is the key here. You absolutely insist that all times you quote are written in stone. Yet, repeatedly people (myself included) have told you that you are basing your times on an ESTIMATE given by a doctor in 1888 and using times from witnesses who did not have a watch.

Sorry but your last paragraph went by me completely. I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Tom,

I don't think we have to limit ourselves to people as possible sources of interruption. It could have been something as mundane as an increase in the loudness of singing making Jack realize just how close he was to other people. Anything could have made him jumpy at that point.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Are you questioning Eddowes as a Ripper victim now? I said the 'next time he went out', which is inarguably on the same night both Stride and Eddowes was murdered. We then have graffiti. Pretty serendipidous.

* Two prostitutes murdered by strangers
* Both murders occur within 10 min distance and 45 min time
* Both with their throats cut
*One holding cachous, the other a thimble (found next to hand)
*Both murders occurred on the ONLY night the Ripper went out before 2am.
*Stride was killed in a very dark corner by someone who 'knew how to cut a throat' (Dr. Phillips). Outside of the Ripper murders that year, it was unique.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

That's the just the problem, Mike - "approximately".

12:46 just isn't very "approximate". It's very precise. Schwartz estimated that he turned onto Berner Street at 12:45, which meant he would have arrived at the murder spot a few minutes later. If the killer then dispatched Stride quickly out of fear that Schwartz and/or Pipeman were running off in search of a policeman on beat, it would mean he killed her beteen 12:46 and 12:56, i.e. when Dr. Blackwell believed she died.

Best regards,
Ben

The walk from where he enters Berner Street is not one of minutes Ben, its one of maybe a minute..and since the event and their departure just after happens as soon as he arrives, you rightfully conclude that he is now alone with the victim...only you cannot presume to tell me what he was thinking about the 2 witnesses that left.

He's with her outside an empty yard at approx 12:46, no later than 12:47 since Schwartz and Pipeman hurried off, and she is cut by 12:56...as per Blackwells estimates.

You suggest he just cuts her and leaves...Im all for that, makes sense to me..

But how in gods name can this then be seen as having the slightest bit of similarity to the deaths of 2 women with their stomachs cut open after being assaulted without a knife then having their throats cut, with another murder just like those 2 coming later that morning?

Its like the rational side of youre argument is tossed aside to leave Jack in the picture.... after you make clear you recognize the justification for Jack has no evidence to support it...so in effect, despite the contrary evidence that I know you understand fully.

Im always amazed at this murders inclusion in the first place, but I do see the predicament they were in. There is no such public or professional pressure now though...so whats the deal?

There is no evidence that exists to justify Liz Strides death as "Canonical" at all....and there is evidence that does exist to suggest it was not.

So why would I again? I dont get these arguments.....

"I know, I know Mike...., the yard is empty, BSM is alone with the victim right outside the spot where she is cut in an empty yard at the time, at approximately 12:46-47....she is cut before 12:56 by Blackwell....Diemshutz pulls in at 1am....no-one is seen arriving or leaving the yard between 12:45 and 1am....BSM is the only man of record anywhere near the gates for the last 10 minutes of Liz's life.........but it could have been Jack and he was interrupted, or Jack could have hid in the empty yard before 12:40..or Jack might have slipped in after BSM and slipped out as Diemshutz arrives..."

Heres what straight talk is......If your 75 pounds over your optimum weight as per age and height, youre fat.....your not slightly overweight, pudgy, big boned, short for your weight, or a few pounds heavy...or light compared to a Sumo wrestler.

Facts are not always what people want to hear or will accept, but they are nonetheless facts....and none that are known in this case lead to a logical or reasonable conclusion of Ripper-interruptus.

Cheers Ben

[Monty]

Just so I can bathe in that reassuring feeling of being ignored...

...can anyone cite the evidence Stride was killed by a stranger?

[perrymason]

Are you questioning Eddowes as a Ripper victim now? I said the 'next time he went out', which is inarguably on the same night both Stride and Eddowes was murdered. We then have graffiti. Pretty serendipidous.

* Two prostitutes murdered by strangers
* Both murders occur within 10 min distance and 45 min time
* Both with their throats cut
*One holding cachous, the other a thimble (found next to hand)
*Both murders occurred on the ONLY night the Ripper went out before 2am.
*Stride was killed in a very dark corner by someone who 'knew how to cut a throat' (Dr. Phillips). Outside of the Ripper murders that year, it was unique.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

We have a death uncharacteristiclly like The Ripper deaths of Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman that occurs on a night when a murder that almost matches the 2 Canonicals mentioned in most every detail is committed...with some new mutilations. Mrs Brown also fits that description...so 3 deaths total.

One has all the expected Ripper markings and features plus new acts that indicate some killer evolution....the other 2 do not.

Liz Strides death is just as unique as Marthas was, and she wasnt likely a Ripper victim either... killed with 2 weapons by someone that perhaps knew vital organ locations.

Its the same argument as was made then...how many guys could there be running around killing women or slitting throats during the same period as the Ripper worked?

Id say 4 at least by the evidence, at least 1 that made Torsos, 2 men or one that killed Martha, 1 that slits Liz's throat, and one that mutilates womens abdomens after he almost cuts their heads off. Add that to the gang that assaults Emma, the thief that stabs Ada, and on and on....

Its not like Jack the Ripper had the killing of all those Unfortunates on his shoulders...

Cheers Tom

[DVV]

Hi Mike,
Do you seriously believe in "Ada's thief story"?
Amitiés my friend,
David

[perrymason]

...can anyone cite the evidence Stride was killed by a stranger?

We do not know for a fact if Broadshouldered Man is unknown by Liz....so I would guess there is no firm evidence she did not know her killer Monty...even if its BSM.

Do we "know" for certain some other Canonical Victims did not know their killer....nope.

So its not a form of non-Ripper proof in and of itself should Liz have known her killer. Some others may have also...like Mary Kelly for one.

Cheers Monty

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,
Do you seriously believe in "Ada's thief story"?
Amitiés my friend,
David

Hi David,

Ill reserve those thoughts for when I am countering her inclusion in the Canonical Group ...the point is clear without that particular incident though.

Cheers David.

[Fisherman]

Tom wants to know:

"Are you questioning Eddowes as a Ripper victim now? I said the 'next time he went out"

Tom, what you said - exactly - was this: "Immediately following the Chapman murder, there were two sensational rumors - that the Ripper killed two women in one night and left graffiti at/near the scene of one of the crimes. The next time the Ripper went out, both of these came true."

That can only be interpreted in one way - that the Ripper killed two women and that he wrote the graffito. And that is jumping the gun somewhat, wouldn ´t you say?
It´s not that I don´t know what you tried to say. It just came out a bit too much on the self-secure side, Tom.

By the way, Tom; would you say that the good Mr Brown also "knew how to cut a throat"? And if so, how could that be - given his lack of training?

Fisherman
curious

[Tom_Wescott]

...can anyone cite the evidence Stride was killed by a stranger?

She was three days seperated from her boyfriend, whose alibi was confirmed, as were the alibis of all her other known associates. In the event you believe Schwartz's story of passerby stopping to speak to Stride, it does not suggest they know each other.

What is all this noise about Mr. Brown? He has nothing to do with the Ripper crimes. He was a husband who killed his wife. Cut and dried and altogether typical. And no, he had no clue how to use a knife. From what I understand, he merely cut and sawed and her neck.

There is no evidence that exists to justify Liz Strides death as "Canonical" at all....and there is evidence that does exist to suggest it was not.

Most believe the opposite is true, and for good reason.
Hi Tom,

I don't think we have to limit ourselves to people as possible sources of interruption. It could have been something as mundane as an increase in the loudness of singing making Jack realize just how close he was to other people. Anything could have made him jumpy at that point.

That's my point. He probably chose not to mutilate her for one reason or another.

We do not know for a fact if Broadshouldered Man is unknown by Liz....so I would guess there is no firm evidence she did not know her killer Monty..

We have no 'firm evidence' that BS Man even existed, or if he did that he was her killer, so supposing he did and he was, we have to draw our conclusions from what little info we have, and that info does not indicate they were known to each other.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott