Practicality or madness?

[Fisherman]

He managed to dump a lot of torsos and he also got his victims from the down & out.

There is nothing pointing directly at necrophilia in this case.

Mad Butcher, killed men and women, but mostly men.

And that applies .. how? What are you getting at?

[Batman]

Just analogous cases which can be helpful in explaining others.

[Fisherman]

Just analogous cases which can be helpful in explaining others.

Ah, okay - always useful to look at other cases, of course. The Kingsbury Run Butcher was a terrible character, dismembering and decapitating people who were still alive, so just how analogous he is will always be a disputable matter.

[Batman]

Ah, okay - always useful to look at other cases, of course. The Kingsbury Run Butcher was a terrible character, dismembering and decapitating people who were still alive, so just how analogous he is will always be a disputable matter.

Dr. Francis "Frank" E. Sweeney is the prime suspect. A bit like the Kozminski claim, when Sweeney committed himself, the murders 'stopped'.

[John G]

Ted Bundy was a true necrophiliac. This is what he was holding back all along but Keppel managed to eventually get it out of him. Ted Bundy was keeping parts (heads) and full bodies at locations he had mapped out in his mind and was returning to them later on. This is how Keppel realized The Green River Killer (Gary Ridgway) was also returning to the bodies. Bundy spent the night with the bodies. He would alter them with makeup to look more like his ex-fiancee (she one time woke up to Ted exploring her under the sheets with a flashlight). The lesson learned here is to stake out places where bodies are found without alerting the media (which is incredibly hard).

They will keep the body but many need new parts after they have served a purpose, meaning too rotten/used up and they need something fresh again. Ed Gein, Jeffery Dahmer all did this. Dahmer did it because he wanted to have friends. He cannibalized to solidify the friendship so that they would become part of him forever.

A boat would allow for the offender to dump blood and body pieces easily as well as a place to keep his crimes away from his home.

The Thames Torso Murders of the period of 1887 to 1889 start with river dumping. Rainham mystery. Part of the Whitehall mystery is river based but then the river parts stop and the torso is found in Whitehall at New Scotland Yard, suggesting the offender has gone from river dumping to land dumping.

Then we have a pause (or not if he is JtR) and is back to the river dumping again with Elizabeth Jackson, but then goes to dumping on land again with the Pinchin Street Torso after Jackson's parts are found.

Seems a pattern of when his Thames work is discovered he stops river dumping and turns to street dumping.

There was only one victim not connected to the Thames (the police buliding was on the embankment), the last one, and that may have been intended as a pastiche of the Ripper Murders.

Neither Torso man or JtR were anything like Bundy, i.e in that they were both consistent in their different ways.

I see Torso man as an offensive/defensive dismemberer, whereas JtR was an obvious lust murderer.

By the way, I'm guessing adding the Torso murders to your geo profile messes things up a bit!

And here's a photo of the embankment: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Embankment

I reckon Ted Bundy was more like Torso than JtR. You will note that he was orgsnized enough to attack his victims indoors or in secluded locations, whereas as we discussed before, JtR was a classic disorganised out in the open street killer.

[John G]

You rely on what you believe the series "imply", John. These are preconceptions, therefore, and not facts. We must keep an open mind here! And we are left with two series with inclusions of similarities that are extremely rare and far-reaching. Before we can explain that, the pertinent thing to do is to work from an assumption of a common originator.

The idea that a dismemberer with a bolthole cannot and/or will not kill in the streets is a very useful one - but it is an idea only, and not a proven thing. As I say, there are examples of those who have killed both in- and outdoors, just as there are examples of those who only occasionally dismember.

The onus of proof is therefore on you if you want to tell the series apart.

But on the whole, the old chestnut of a common originator is only a secondary topic of this thread. The question about whether both killers worked to similar agendas of killing, bleeding and cutting away in quick succession is what I am primarily after here. And it seems they did, does it not?

Why is the onus of proof on me? What do you mean by " inclusions of similarities that are extremely rare and far reaching?

Regarding similar agendas, I would largely disagree with that (not completely because in a previous post I referred to the possibility of Torso man being an offensive/defensive offender, and offensive dismemberment can be analogues with lust murder.)

Personally I regard Torsoman as a unique and highly unususl killer. Organized, in the way JtR was not; defensive/cautious in the way he took precautions to prevent his victims from being identified; a ghoulish sense of humour, as evidenced by the fact that he was scattering body parts like pieces of a puzzle; and soneone who wss playing a kind of game with the police- I mean there can't be many serial killers who thought it would be a great whiz to bury body parts right under the noses of the police in their own headquarters!

[Batman]

By the way, I'm guessing adding the Torso murders to your geo profile messes things up a bit!

It ain't mine. It's been around for a while now. I just laid it over an old map of Whitechapel with points of interest which hit on Nichols and Tabram. I doubt it's anything new, you can just see things better, including the Goulston St., apron piece trajectory I added.

Water dumping is a BIG problem. You have to model water currents for bodies deposited in sea/rivers first to figure out where they are being dumped. Hence why so many modern serial killers select rivers to dump because of forensic awareness. If they select the same area to deposit then you have only one pin on a map representing a series. That's bad for geographic profiling... but not for catching them red-handed doing it again.

The very fact a body of water exists is a big constraint on geographic profiles, such as a lake for example. Then they have to commute to get around it. Same with dumping, it's leaning towards the commuter model. What you basically end up with is a map of where he is dumping, rather than where he is murdering them, which is what the C5 geographic profile uses (murder sites).

Long Island Serial Killer Dump Sites has been geographically modeled and basically, part of the hot zone is in the sea and part of it slightly on land up from the beach road. I suspect the hot zone for the Torso murders will be the Thames itself in part.

If we figured out where he was murdering them, we would probably have him, hence why he is dumping him.

So I would do another model separate for these Thames murders, get what you can from it and then see how it lines up with the C5, and go from there.

I don't think it will change the C5 hot zone much because the dump sites still seem to fall into a radius away from it.

[Sam Flynn]

I don't think it will change the C5 hot zone much because the dump sites still seem to fall into a radius away from it.

Quite. With that radius firmly centred in South West London.

[Fisherman]

John G: There was only one victim not connected to the Thames (the police buliding was on the embankment), the last one, and that may have been intended as a pastiche of the Ripper Murders.

Not only was the police building on the Embankment, John - an arm from the body was actually found in the Thames before the torso was discovered.

Neither Torso man or JtR were anything like Bundy, i.e in that they were both consistent in their different ways.

I see Torso man as an offensive/defensive dismemberer, whereas JtR was an obvious lust murderer.

That is what you see, yes. Others see it differently. You may be interested in Drew Grays oncoming book.
What is it that turns JTR into a lust murderer? His cutting faces? His carving the flesh off a thigh? His taking out a kidney?
Or is it his taking out uteri? The Torso killer did that too. Is it his cutting into the genitals? The Torso killer did that too.

By the way, I'm guessing adding the Torso murders to your geo profile messes things up a bit!

Why?

And here's a photo of the embankment: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Embankment

I reckon Ted Bundy was more like Torso than JtR. You will note that he was orgsnized enough to attack his victims indoors or in secluded locations, whereas as we discussed before, JtR was a classic disorganised out in the open street killer.

"We" didn´t discuss that. You did. And "classic disorganized killers" are not silent. And they leave traces behind. That is why I did not and do not agree. Most serious researchers acknowledge that the Ripper seemingly had traits of BOTH kinds.

[Fisherman]

John G: Why is the onus of proof on me?

Because I have already proven by way of examples that there are killers who kill both in- and outdoors and there are those who dismember only parts of their victim tallies. That´s why it is up to you to prove why the opposite supposedly applies in this case.

What do you mean by " inclusions of similarities that are extremely rare and far reaching?

Taking out uteri. Cutting the abdomen open from pubes to breastbone. Taking away the heart. Cutting the abdominal wall away in flaps.

Regarding similar agendas, I would largely disagree with that (not completely because in a previous post I referred to the possibility of Torso man being an offensive/defensive offender, and offensive dismemberment can be analogues with lust murder.)

Personally I regard Torsoman as a unique and highly unususl killer. Organized, in the way JtR was not; defensive/cautious in the way he took precautions to prevent his victims from being identified; a ghoulish sense of humour, as evidenced by the fact that he was scattering body parts like pieces of a puzzle; and soneone who wss playing a kind of game with the police- I mean there can't be many serial killers who thought it would be a great whiz to bury body parts right under the noses of the police in their own headquarters.

Problems:

You think Torso man was more organized than the Ripper. You don´t know it.
You think Torso man was more defensive/cautious than the Ripper. You don´t know it.
You think they had different senses of humour. You don´t know it.

All in all, you have made yourself a picture of the Torso killer. And one of the Ripper. And you THINK they are incompatible.

But you don´t know it.

When the similarities I have listed surface, you have nut one choice: to try and understand how they were the same man throughout, in spite of your initial misgivings. It is much like having a test corrected and returned to you.
All on all, though, this thread is more about whether it can be posited that both killers had the same agenda of killing swiftly and bleeding the victim in order to get cutting; if the deeds were all about procuring bodies and not about killing per se.

[Fisherman]

It ain't mine. It's been around for a while now. I just laid it over an old map of Whitechapel with points of interest which hit on Nichols and Tabram. I doubt it's anything new, you can just see things better, including the Goulston St., apron piece trajectory I added.

Water dumping is a BIG problem. You have to model water currents for bodies deposited in sea/rivers first to figure out where they are being dumped. Hence why so many modern serial killers select rivers to dump because of forensic awareness. If they select the same area to deposit then you have only one pin on a map representing a series. That's bad for geographic profiling... but not for catching them red-handed doing it again.

The very fact a body of water exists is a big constraint on geographic profiles, such as a lake for example. Then they have to commute to get around it. Same with dumping, it's leaning towards the commuter model. What you basically end up with is a map of where he is dumping, rather than where he is murdering them, which is what the C5 geographic profile uses (murder sites).

Long Island Serial Killer Dump Sites has been geographically modeled and basically, part of the hot zone is in the sea and part of it slightly on land up from the beach road. I suspect the hot zone for the Torso murders will be the Thames itself in part.

If we figured out where he was murdering them, we would probably have him, hence why he is dumping him.

So I would do another model separate for these Thames murders, get what you can from it and then see how it lines up with the C5, and go from there.

I don't think it will change the C5 hot zone much because the dump sites still seem to fall into a radius away from it.

The normal reason for dumping bodies in water is that it will eradicate traces leading back to the killer.

I don´t think the killer dumped where he did to avoid being detected. I think he did it to maximize the chances of the parts being found, by floating them through the whole of central London.

[Fisherman]

Quite. With that radius firmly centred in South West London.

The crux of the matter is that dumping places are not picking up places or murder places. Another crux is that the killer had access to transport. A third crux is that regardless of how he could have chosen the same spot for his dumpings, he did no such thing. A fourth crux is that the only dumping that was believed to have been made on foot is the Pinchin Street dumping - in the East End.

All the West End dumpings tell us is that the killer was able to get to the dumping sites there. Nothing else. And once a dumped body in the West End and a woman killed in a squalid room in the East End both have their hearts and their uteri taken out plus they have their abdominal walls cut away in flaps, then we do not have to let the varying sites confuse us. Unless we feel it MUST confuse us, that is.

As the crow flies, the distance between St Pancras Lock and Bucks Row is roughly the same as the distance between St Pancras Lock and Battersea. Perhaps we should take heed of that fact, Gareth? Get yourself a red ink pen and make little dots on the murder sites of the Ripper and the dumping sites of the Torso man, and then tell me that it cannot have been the same killer.
Can you do that? Or is all you can prove that the dumping sites generally were more to the West in the torso cases? That is a precious small argument, if so.

But as I told John, though, this thread is mostly about whether it can be posited that both killers had the same agenda of killing swiftly and bleeding the victim in order to get cutting; if the deeds were all about procuring bodies and not about killing per se.

[Batman]

Any links between the torso victims and the C5. Did any of them know each other?

[Fisherman]

Any links between the torso victims and the C5. Did any of them know each other?

Possibly, even probably when it comes to the C5 - they frequented a relatively small area and were in the same line of business. However, since serial killers are almost always killers of strangers, there is no reason for any of the victims to have been aquainted for the killer to have been the same man. The geography is more important, and we don´t know where the Torso victims were picked up.

[Sam Flynn]

The geography is more important, and we don´t know where the Torso victims were picked up.

The one we do know about lived and worked in and around the Chelsea area. No reason to suppose that the other torso victims - Pinchin excepted - weren't also from South West London. It's almost certain that the torso victims didn't know any of the C5; indeed, there's no guarantee that all the C5 knew each other, either.