Antisemitism as a diversionary tactic

[Batman]

Thanks, yes now it rings a bell.

What I have always noticed about this Rip graffiti is that it is quite similar to the Dear Boss letter in handwriting.

For example, the words 'I am' and 'on'.

I wonder if anyone ever tried a formal analysis.

[Abby Normal]

"I think the GSG is simply an anti-semitic statement saying the "Jews won't take responsibility for anything." That simple."

Hello Batman,

Even if we assume for the sake of argument that that is true, it still sounds like a statement made by someone who thought the butcher had his thumb on the scale not what somebody would write who had just killed two women on the same night. I am not saying that it shows that it could not have been written by the killer but that it simply seems very strange if indeed it did come from him.

c.d.

hi CD
serial killers are strange people. anyway whatever we make or don't of it, it obviously made perfect sense to the person who wrote it.

[Batman]

hi CD
serial killers are strange people. anyway whatever we make or don't of it, it obviously made perfect sense to the person who wrote it.

HELTER SKELTER! (not just a beetles song apparently)

[Batman]

Halse on Goulston Street twice?

https://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Daniel_Halse.html

On 29th September 1888, Halse, acting on orders, had directed a number of police officers to patrol the City of London throughout the night. At 1.58am the following morning he was at the corner of Houndsditch by St Botolph's Aldgate with Detective Sergeant Robert Outram and Detective Constable Edward Marriott when they received word of the murder in Mitre Square. All three proceeded there and Halse shone his lamp upon Eddowe's body. He gave instructions to have the neighbourhood searched and every man examined. He himself proceeded to Middlesex Street and then Wentworth Street where he stopped two men who gave a good account of themselves.

At 2.20am he was in Goulston Street, but returned to Mitre Square. From there he accompanied Inspector Edward Collard to the City mortuary. He was present as the body was stripped and noted that a portion of Eddowes' apron was missing. He returned to Mitre Square with Major Henry Smith and thence to Leman Street Police Station with Detective Baxter Hunt.

On returning to Goulston Street he was shown the spot where the portion of Eddowes' apron was found in the doorway of 108-19 Wentworth Dwellings. He also observed the Goulston Street Graffito which he said was "on the black fascia of the wall" and appeared to be recently written. He remained at the site and gave directions for the writing to be photographed, however attendant members of the Metropolitan Police noted that it was a sunday morning and the writing may spark a riot against the Jews. Halse suggested that only the top line of the writing be erased and also took down the wording which he believed was "The Juwes are not the men that will be blamed for nothing".

St Botolph's Aldgate is 3 min walk from Mitre sq. and close also therefore to where Eddowes was found drunk.

[Joshua Rogan]

St Botolph's Aldgate is 3 min walk from Mitre sq. and close also therefore to where Eddowes was found drunk.

Yes, most probably where Kate was headed after leaving the police station, if she wanted to earn a little money, and so likely where she met Jack.

[c.d.]

hi CD
serial killers are strange people. anyway whatever we make or don't of it, it obviously made perfect sense to the person who wrote it.

Agreed.

c.d.

[Batman]

Is it possible that Halse would have been in Bishopsgate station at some point during Eddowes stay in their drunk tank or was he located elsewhere?

[MrBarnett]

HELTER SKELTER! (not just a beetles song apparently)

Bats,

'Beetles?'

Personally, I prefer Bob Dillan.

Hary

[Wickerman]

Hi Christer, hope you are well....

That is the pertinent question to ask, Jon, so thanks for that!

The very fact that Long did not stand to get criticized for not being able to tell is visible within the wording used by the coroner when Long was asked about the rag:

" (Coroner): Had you been past that spot previously to your discovering the apron?
(Long): I passed about twenty minutes past two o'clock.
(Coroner): Are you able to say whether the apron was there then?
(Long): It was not."

So we can see that the coroner freely allows for Long not having noticed (are you able, can you tell or not?) - just as has been pointed out, there may have been litter all around the place, generally speaking, and so it could be hard to establish on Longs behalf.

But! If the doorway was NOT littered, and if Long had been inside it and checked it at the early occasion only to later find a rag that he knew had not been there before,...

It was part of the beat PC's duty to check all doors that can be entered at street level. There was a door inside the entrance, so why wouldn't he do what was expected of him?
This places him inside the entrance where he can see if a rag had been there 30 minutes previous, he would have to step over it.

When PC Long was not sure of something, he said so, here are three examples.

[Coroner] Was not the word "Jews" spelt "Juwes?" - It may have been.

[Coroner] Is it possible that you have put the "not" in the wrong place? - It is possible, but I do not think that I have.

[Coroner] Did the writing appear to have been recently done? - I could not form an opinion.

[Coroner] Is it possible to get it at once? - I dare say.

As demonstrated above, PC Long was not concerned about saying when he wasn't sure about something. Which is why we have no reason to believe if he had not been sure that the rag was there at 2:20 then he would have gave the same answer as he did above, that he wasn't sure.

He said he was sure, which we have to take as a reliable opinion.

[Varqm]

Hi Christer, hope you are well....



It was part of the beat PC's duty to check all doors that can be entered at street level. There was a door inside the entrance, so why wouldn't he do what was expected of him?
This places him inside the entrance where he can see if a rag had been there 30 minutes previous, he would have to step over it.

When PC Long was not sure of something, he said so, here are three examples.

[Coroner] Was not the word "Jews" spelt "Juwes?" - It may have been.

[Coroner] Is it possible that you have put the "not" in the wrong place? - It is possible, but I do not think that I have.

[Coroner] Did the writing appear to have been recently done? - I could not form an opinion.

[Coroner] Is it possible to get it at once? - I dare say.

As demonstrated above, PC Long was not concerned about saying when he wasn't sure about something. Which is why we have no reason to believe if he had not been sure that the rag was there at 2:20 then he would have gave the same answer as he did above, that he wasn't sure.

He said he was sure, which we have to take as a reliable opinion.

Good point,like Halse,

"By Mr. Crawford: At twenty minutes past two o'clock I passed over the spot where the piece of apron was found, but did not notice anything then. I should not necessarily have seen the piece of apron."

The police would also have known about their answers before the inquest which happened 4 days later.As posted before I doubt the higher officials did not make Long demonstrate what he did at 2:20 am ,what did he do or where did he shone the light so that they could see for themselves instead of guessing if indeed the apron could be seen if it was there or not at 2:20 am and if the graffito could be noticed or not if it was already there.Long's testimony then were correct with no objections in the inquest or after.
Long was at Goulston St. [Coroner] When did you return? - About five o'clock.

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[Sam Flynn]

Interesting that discussion remains largely, if not entirely, focused on the Double Event. Which is hardly surprising, given that there is no real evidence to support the notion that the Ripper was exploiting antisemitism, nor did he exhibit any antisemitic traits, when we consider the case as a whole. Any hint of such tactics can be ascribed, and then only speculatively, to events that lasted a mere couple of hours during the entire Autumn of Terror.

[Batman]

Interesting that discussion remains largely, if not entirely, focused on the Double Event. Which is hardly surprising, given that there is no real evidence to support the notion that the Ripper was exploiting antisemitism, nor did he exhibit any antisemitic traits, when we consider the case as a whole. Any hint of such tactics can be ascribed, and then only speculatively, to events that lasted a mere couple of hours during the entire Autumn of Terror.

Let me ask you this. What evidence would you accept would validate the anti-semitic claim?
What are your criteria for what is acceptable as evidence in this case?

[Sam Flynn]

Let me ask you this. What evidence would you accept would validate the anti-semitic claim?

It would help if there were irrefutably Jewish elements reflected in the Nichols, Chapman and Kelly murders. But there aren't. Even with Eddowes, the best we've really got is "well, she was murderered a hundred metres around the corner from a synagogue", and the controversial Goulston Street Graffito.

A better case can of course be made for Jewish connections to the Stride murder, but (a) we're talking about a heavily Jewish area, so there were bound to be Jewish connections whether Jack intended them or not; and (b) was it Jack who killed her anyway?

The evidence for Jack's having adopted an "antisemitism ploy" is extremely thin and, given that any hints of such a ploy only manifested themselves on 1 night out of 4, it appears far more likely that there was no such tactic in play at all.

[Batman]

It would help if there were irrefutably Jewish elements reflected in the Nichols, Chapman and Kelly murders.

What would these be? What would you class as irrefutable here exactly? Am I only to also believe you only accept evidence that is irrefutable in general?

[MrBarnett]

It would help if there were irrefutably Jewish elements reflected in the Nichols, Chapman and Kelly murders. But there aren't. Even with Eddowes, the best we've really got is "well, she was murderered a hundred metres around the corner from a synagogue", and the controversial Goulston Street Graffito.

A better case can of course be made for Jewish connections to the Stride murder, but (a) we're talking about a heavily Jewish area, so there were bound to be Jewish connections whether Jack intended them or not; and (b) was it Jack who killed her anyway?

The evidence for Jack's having adopted an "antisemitism ploy" is extremely thin and, given that any hints of such a ploy only manifested themselves on 1 night out of 4, it appears far more likely that there was no such tactic in play at all.

Not a synagogue, Gareth, The Great Synagogue and a short distance from the Bevis Marks Sephardic Synagogue, the most historic Jewish place of worship in the country.

I have a great little book called Houndsditch Day by Day all about the Jewish characters of the area in which it is said that 'Dook's Place' was the centre of the Jewish sporting (gambling) world. A street nearby was called Jewry Street.

I challenge anyone to name a more significantly Jewish area in the whole of London.