JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis

[Observer]

https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...iths-beat.html

This suggests differently.

You know when I have two or three hours spare I might just try and digest the dissertation in question. As far as I'm concerned though it's another example of taking witness testimony as the gospel truth. "If he was here when he said he was why didn't he see this?" That sort of thing. Why did Smith not see Schwartz? Because he wasn't in the street at that time. It's as simple as that.

[Batman]

You know when I have two or three hours spare I might just try and digest the dissertation in question. As far as I'm concerned though it's another example of taking witness testimony as the gospel truth. "If he was here when he said he was why didn't he see this?" That sort of thing. Why did Smith not see Schwartz? Because he wasn't in the street at that time. It's as simple as that.

The corroboration is Leon Goldstein, of 22 Christian Street, and he said that he had walked down Berner Street at about 1:00 on his way home. This was the man with the black bag she had seen. He was found and identified.

[John G]

Mrs. Mortimer thought she heard a policeman around the time of Stride's death.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/london_evening_news/881001.html

THE SILENCE OF THE MURDERER.
When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises. A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a

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quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

DISTURBING THE MURDERER.
Presuming that the body did not lie in the yard when the policeman passed - and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice - and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. Diemschitz says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived.

I think it was PC Smith that Mrs Mortimer heard passing at around 12:45. We don't know what time Stride was murdered.

Here is a previous exchange I had with Tom Westcott about PC Smith's timings: https://forum.casebook.org/showthrea...452#post369452

[Wickerman]

You know when I have two or three hours spare I might just try and digest the dissertation in question. As far as I'm concerned though it's another example of taking witness testimony as the gospel truth. "If he was here when he said he was why didn't he see this?" That sort of thing. Why did Smith not see Schwartz? Because he wasn't in the street at that time. It's as simple as that.

I don't believe witness statements are taken as 'the gospel truth' by the police, neither should we take them as 'the gospel truth'.
It is though a stated record of what took place, and as such is accepted unless evidence surfaces to the contrary.
The fact PC Smith did not mention seeing Schwartz is not evidence Schwartz was not there. Not including a detail is deemed negative evidence, and negative evidence is not evidence of anything.

[Observer]

I don't believe witness statements are taken as 'the gospel truth' by the police, neither should we take them as 'the gospel truth'.
It is though a stated record of what took place, and as such is accepted unless evidence surfaces to the contrary.
The fact PC Smith did not mention seeing Schwartz is not evidence Schwartz was not there. Not including a detail is deemed negative evidence, and negative evidence is not evidence of anything.

I wasn't suggesting the police at the time took witness statement as gospel. Some who post here do though, and then they'll use the contradictory timings of certain witlessness to bolster a conspiracy theory. Unless witnesses have access to a reliable timepiece I'd say we take their timings with a certain caution. As i said, some on here adhere to the timings of witnesses as if they were written in stone. A question was asked why PC Smith never saw Schwartz, I was then directed to a dissertation which refuted Smith's testimony the complexity of which has to be seen to be believed. The thing is it doesn't doesn't matter what time Smith passed up Berner Street, the simple reason he did not spot Schwartz is down to the simple fact that he was not in the street when Stride was attacked.

[Batman]

When faced with a big essay on something like this, I just scoot down to the conclusion section and read that first and then if I want to know more, go into the main body of text with the facts that led to the conclusion.

[Harry D]

With respect, I haven't seen a convincing argument yet that the killer was fuzz. How did he remain one step ahead of the police? Mostly luck, opportunism, and a police force that were unequipped for the job. The killer needn't be a police officer to have a rough idea of their movements, particularly as patrols were not to the exact minute and any miscalculation could prove fatal.

[Batman]

With respect, I haven't seen a convincing argument yet that the killer was fuzz. How did he remain one step ahead of the police? Mostly luck, opportunism, and a police force that were unequipped for the job. The killer needn't be a police officer to have a rough idea of their movements, particularly as patrols were not to the exact minute and any miscalculation could prove fatal.

Clothed policemen, even reversing their beat, could be easily avoided by learning how to avoid them from prior dealings with unfortunates in the same areas. So experience could do that.

However, dodging plainclothes and stakeouts and the public and bait is a different thing and these JtR setups that he avoided suggests inside knowledge.

The area around Mitre Square was swarming with officers both clothed and plainclothes.

Also looking closely at officers and their beats for each of the murders raises some interesting questions, many of which get answered by... oh he may have not been attentive or he may have not been doing his job properly at the time or just assuming he was at the other end of his beat because he didn't respond to the cries, etc.

[Harry D]

And what about the other unsolved murders that happened during this period? Did they require a killer with inside knowledge of the police, or did the same factors that contributed to the Ripper's success also apply to them?

[Batman]

And what about the other unsolved murders that happened during this period? Did they require a killer with inside knowledge of the police, or did the same factors that contributed to the Ripper's success also apply to them?

Did they have the kind of organized trappings the Ripper got? I don't think so.

500 officers.

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/h-division-personnel.html

200+ named there and 300 to go.

[Sam Flynn]

Did they have the kind of organized trappings the Ripper got? I don't think so.

500 officers.

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/h-division-personnel.html

200+ named there and 300 to go.

They worked shifts, and wouldn't all have been deployed at once. Those that were would have been distributed throughout H Division, and not all of them would have been walking the beat.

[Batman]

They worked shifts, and wouldn't all have been deployed at once. Those that were would have been distributed throughout H Division, and not all of them would have been walking the beat.

It's less about the beat walkers and more about the actual traps set for him, including plainclothes, stakeouts, and bait.

Also, investigators had obviously figured out that JtR was targetting women without their doss money and would have been watching out for these individuals the most, especially if they met with a man.

Around the time of Eddowes murder, James Blenkinsop, nightwatchman overseeing roadworks in St James Place, claimed a respectably dressed man approached him, asking, "Have you seen a man and woman go through here?" Blenkinsop said he had seen some people pass, but that he had not paid any attention to them.

I would think that man a plainclothed detective. It is unknown if he is asking this before or after the murder but happens around that time.

If before, then this may lead credence to the view that Eddowes might have been a 'nose'... and she lost hers.

[Sam Flynn]

It's less about the beat walkers and more about the actual traps set for him, including plainclothes, stakeouts, and bait.

The increased police presence might account for the growing gaps between the murders from Chapman onwards. Would someone with inside information need to have waited as long between kills?

[Batman]

The increased police presence might account for the growing gaps between the murders from Chapman onwards. Would someone with inside information need to have waited as long between kills?

In terms of timing, he is considered extremely quick compared to other serial killers. The autumn of terror captures how quick it was.

Friday 31 August 1888
Friday 9 November 1888

Approx 9 weeks for 5 murders.

Inside knowledge looks something like this -> http://www.goldenstatekiller.com/attack-list.php

Notice the last 7 as ONS were done after he was fired. 2 per year and then a 5 year gap.

A graph just drops like a cliff after being fired, but he turns to homicides exclusively and the crimes a lot worse (if they weren't bad enough already).

He was doing about 2 attacks per month on average, which isn't far off what JtR was doing with the C5.

[Sam Flynn]

In terms of timing, he is considered extremely quick compared to other serial killers

I know, but there was barely a week between Nichols and Chapman, and escalation was already apparent.