JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis

[Abby Normal]

If Hutchinson never saw a PC for the 45 min he was there, and the PC should have seen him twice, then either Hutchinson is lying... or that PC is now a candidate for murdering MJK when he should have been on the beat.

Problems with this are that officer L.63 looks nothing like Hutchinson's JtR. (L.63 bottom of the first top cartoon, left of JtR's right leg).

However, we don't know that this is how L.63 looked. It could be an artist concept. I can not find mention of his appearance at MJKs inquest hearing.

So here is a hypothesis. L.63 dawned an astrakhan and some plainclothes over his uniform. Went away with MJK. Murdered her. Burnt his astrakhan and some plainclothes in her fire. Walked out in his uniform again.

If L.63 was drafted in specially for this street at this time then I would say L.63 needs to be looked at more closely. The fact we don't know WHO he is, may speak to concerns the investigators had over him, especially since the worst homicide of the series occurred on his beat.

Hi Batman
thats quite a hypothesis!

[Batman]

That's not so much an hypothesis as a script idea for a fictional TV series. I'd watch it, that's for sure, but I wouldn't buy it as a feasible representation of what would happen in the real world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_State_Killer#Joseph_James_DeAngelo

You need to do some catching up.

It is interesting how cold cases (the ones we didn't catch) are starting to turn up law enforcement for the most prolific ones.

Let's be clear what this police officer did while employed as a police officer.

• Changed his MO not once but twice.
• 100+ burglaries.
• 50+ rapes.
• 13 murders.

We can't even estimate the amount of stalking he did, given his job.

So what you say is TV, is actually a hard reality. The most unknown prolific serial killer and serial rapist in the US has been caught by familial DNA testing and he was cop. He was cop when he was burgling in Visilia. He was a cop when he murdered Snelling. He was a cop when he murdered Brian and Kate Maggiore. He was a cop when he raped 50 women, half of which had their husbands tied up in the room next to them. He wasn't a cop for the last series of murders because he had been fired and went to LA to change his MO.

[Sam Flynn]

So here is a hypothesis. L.63 dawned an astrakhan and some plainclothes over his uniform. Went away with MJK. Murdered her. Burnt his astrakhan and some plainclothes in her fire. Walked out in his uniform again.

That's not so much an hypothesis as a script idea for a fictional TV series. I'd watch it, that's for sure, but I wouldn't buy it as a feasible representation of what would happen in the real world.

[Batman]

Who is L.63?

If Hutchinson never saw a PC for the 45 min he was there, and the PC should have seen him twice, then either Hutchinson is lying... or that PC is now a candidate for murdering MJK when he should have been on the beat.

Problems with this are that officer L.63 looks nothing like Hutchinson's JtR. (L.63 bottom of the first top cartoon, left of JtR's right leg).

However, we don't know that this is how L.63 looked. It could be an artist concept. I can not find mention of his appearance at MJKs inquest hearing.

So here is a hypothesis. L.63 dawned an astrakhan and some plainclothes over his uniform. Went away with MJK. Murdered her. Burnt his astrakhan and some plainclothes in her fire. Walked out in his uniform again.

If L.63 was drafted in specially for this street at this time then I would say L.63 needs to be looked at more closely. The fact we don't know WHO he is, may speak to concerns the investigators had over him, especially since the worst homicide of the series occurred on his beat.

[Wickerman]

Or perhaps Hutchinson left before the PC (if it was one) arrived? The witness agreed that the man "must have walked up the court and back again" - no mention of an hour or so between the walking up and the walking back.

The story by Mrs Cox (Batman's quote), took place about 6:15 am, long after Hutchinson left.
If Millers Court was on a beat, and the beats varied between 15 - 30 minutes each, then footsteps must have been heard through the night.
Also, Hutchinson should have seen a beat constable in his 45 minute vigil several times, at least twice, but possibly four times.

[Batman]

Or perhaps Hutchinson left before the PC (if it was one) arrived? The witness agreed that the man "must have walked up the court and back again" - no mention of an hour or so between the walking up and the walking back.

That is true. That means a PC was within feet of Kelly dead, dying or about to die.

[Bridewell]

[Coroner] From what house did he go ? - I don't know.

[Coroner] Did you hear the door bang after him ? - No.

[Coroner] Then he must have walked up the court and back again? - Yes.

[Coroner] It might have been a policeman ? - It might have been.

So do we have the possibility here of a PC being in Miller's Court at the time of the murder?

Hutchinson claims he never saw a PC in all his time there. Why not? Was it because a PC didn't want to be seen by him and waited for him to leave first?

Or perhaps Hutchinson left before the PC (if it was one) arrived? The witness agreed that the man "must have walked up the court and back again" - no mention of an hour or so between the walking up and the walking back.

[Bridewell]

The Constables may have adapted their own kit independently. That was, and still is, a common practice.

They also purchased more comfortable kit, in hopes their superiors wouldn’t find out. For example, in the 1970s a lot of beat Bobbies bought Dr Maretens boots, as they were more comfortable that issue. However, due to the image of these boots being connected to far right organisations, the practice was banned. To hide these boots, Bobbies would cut the famous heel tags off, and run over the yellow stitching with black marker pens.

So whilst not standard issue, it wouldn’t surprise me if some constables who suffered with their feet (the most common medical complaint for PCs to report) purchased rubber soled boots. However, I’d say it’s more a comfort thing than stealth.

Monty
🙂

When I joined Nottinghamshire (in 1974) boots weren't issued (officers received a boot allowance instead) and we were required to buy Doc Martens. The yellow stitches were blackened with boot polish. They bulled up well and were far more comfortable than anything the notoriously stingy Stores Department would have issued.

[Sam Flynn]

The way you seem to picture it, there was an unavoidable net of police stretched across every thoroughfare in the district from Day One. Well, there was no net, the police were not unavoidable, and it wasn't until the series of murders was practically over that police numbers were boosted to the extent they eventually became.

Saves me typing it again.

[Batman]

Ah, I see, but I never said or meant that. I've no doubt he went scouting for victims frequently, but only succeeded on a handful of nights. He could just as easily avoided the police on those unsuccessful nights.

The way you seem to picture it, there was an unavoidable net of police stretched across every thoroughfare in the district from Day One. Well, there was no net, the police were not unavoidable, and it wasn't until the series of murders was practically over that police numbers were boosted to the extent they eventually became.
So what? It was a rough, overcrowded part of London where violence was common and knives were readily available. Why people get so frothed up about "coincidences" under such circumstances is utterly beyond me.

If you accept he is out and about then your position is that he always easily skipped by every single random checkpoint, stakeout, decoy, bait, beat, plainclothed and civilian lynch mob, including unfortunates out there with a set of lungs should they suspect something. I don't think that was easy especially after Eddowes and near impossible after Kelly (explaining why he had to stop). During Eddowes and Chapman, you had everyone looking out for Leather Apron. However, Eddowes wasn't the start of the whole awareness of murders going on. That goes back to Smith and Tabram when the papers even connected them to Nichols. So it would have been gangs people were worried about followed by Leather Apron followed by JtR.

Multiple coincidences rejecting evidence (for example, rejecting Stride and therefore her witnesses and the anti-semitic content Lipski and rejecting the GSG) is done mostly to make a suspect fit. At the time it is plainly obvious the investigation considered them evidence and followed up on both Lipski and the GSG.

[Sam Flynn]

What I mean is that you have him outside murdering for just two nights in the face of mass surveillance in Whitechapel.

Ah, I see, but I never said or meant that. I've no doubt he went scouting for victims frequently, but only succeeded on a handful of nights. He could just as easily avoided the police on those unsuccessful nights.

The way you seem to picture it, there was an unavoidable net of police stretched across every thoroughfare in the district from Day One. Well, there was no net, the police were not unavoidable, and it wasn't until the series of murders was practically over that police numbers were boosted to the extent they eventually became.

Stride is a canonical JtR victim... If your jury is out, then that's yet another coincidence you hold here

So what? It was a rough, overcrowded part of London where violence was common and knives were readily available. Why people get so frothed up about "coincidences" under such circumstances is utterly beyond me.

[packers stem]

I'm with Sam. Also factor in the fact that prostitutes tend to do business away from the police in secluded spots.

Another reason to believe that Eddowes was not soliciting .
Had she been a prostitute she would have known full well that Mitre Square was not suitable due to beats

[Batman]

Don't know what you mean.
The jury's still out on Stride, or mine is anyway. Besides, Berner Street was a bit of a departure, well south of where the previous murders had occurred, so it's by no means certain that extra police had been posted there. The place didn't seem to be crawling with coppers, at any rate.

What I mean is that you have him outside murdering for just two nights in the face of mass surveillance in Whitechapel. Yet we know these offenders stalk. Stalking outside and carrying what he needs to commit a ripper murder, organ harvesting and all. Still avoiding all the different ways they had to catch him set up.

Stride is a canonical JtR victim. Any jury out would be a modern view. If your jury is out, then that's yet another coincidence you hold here. The chances of all those coincidences being right are slim. You might get one, but not all.

If police weren't posted there, then that works just as well for someone with inside knowledge.

[Sam Flynn]

Do you believe he was even stalking?

Don't know what you mean.

On one of those nights, he killed both in City and Met territory.

The jury's still out on Stride, or mine is anyway. Besides, Berner Street was a bit of a departure, well south of where the previous murders had occurred, so it's by no means certain that extra police had been posted there. The place didn't seem to be crawling with coppers, at any rate.

[Batman]

He only killed on four nights, canonically speaking, and for the first two of those the police presence wasn't as great as it would become subsequently. So we're only left with two nights during which Metropolitan Police ranks had been significantly swollen; on one of those, he killed in City territory, and on the other he killed indoors. Saves me typing it again.

Do you believe he was even stalking?

On one of those nights, he killed both in City and Met territory.