JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis

[Elamarna]

So the answer is you don't know for now? I am waiting for your source that doubts it.

The question is what are your sources for suggesting that london police officers in 1888 bought their own uniforms?

Steve

[John G]

Continuing on from here... https://forum.casebook.org/showthrea...t=11006&page=6



I suspect they bought their own uniforms and had them made to size and therefore could still own them.

I think JtR was extremely specific about not getting blood on himself and this was critical to his attacks, except for Kelly, where he had free reign of the home so to speak. This is evidence I have for this here. https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10998

There are tons of reasons for him to be off his beat and one of them is helping out looking for the ripper. He could be going home, going to work or claim he has been sent on a task.

Best of all, he may have inside knowledge of not just police beats, but stakeouts and would know who the plainclothed officers were.

But he must surely have got some blood and gore on his person as a consequence of the eviscerations.

None of the key witnesses, such as Lawende, reported seeing an unidentified officer near to the scene of a murder.

If seen unexpectedly by another officer he could perhaps have claimed, during the latter murders, that he was one of the extra officers drafted into Whitechapel and that he'd simply gotten himself lost, but presumably his presence would then have been reported.

[MrBarnett]

So the answer is you don't know for now? I am waiting for your source that doubts it.

No, after you. You made the claim. What are your sources? Are you based in the UK? Do you you know where police officers, nurses, doctors, judges etc obtain their work clothes?

What's more important in this discussion is whether you have any research to back up your claims.

Someone who blithely admits not to have researched the cases tried at the Old Bailey and yet poses as an authority on violent crime in Victorian London needs to put up or the alternative.

[Batman]

Why would you think that? Are you UK based?

So the answer is you don't know for now? I am waiting for your source that doubts it.

[MrBarnett]

I would think much like today there would be an outlet that specialized in work uniforms. Clergy, nurses, doctors, police, judges, etc. Why, do you know they were given uniforms that they had on hand?

Why would you think that? Are you UK based?

[Batman]

So you think a Victorian PC had his own personal tailor?

I would think much like today there would be an outlet that specialized in work uniforms. Clergy, nurses, doctors, police, judges, etc. Why, do you know they were given uniforms that they had on hand?

[MrBarnett]

Continuing on from here... https://forum.casebook.org/showthrea...t=11006&page=6



I suspect they bought their own uniforms and had them made to size and therefore could still own them.

I think JtR was extremely specific about not getting blood on himself and this was critical to his attacks, except for Kelly, where he had free reign of the home so to speak. This is evidence I have for this here. https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10998

There are tons of reasons for him to be off his beat and one of them is helping out looking for the ripper. He could be going home, going to work or claim he has been sent on a task.

Best of all, he may have inside knowledge of not just police beats, but stakeouts and would know who the plainclothed officers were.

So you think a Victorian PC had his own personal tailor?

[Batman]

Continuing on from here... https://forum.casebook.org/showthrea...t=11006&page=6

Ah, are you suggesting that he may have been fired prior to the murders but retained his uniform?

Otherwise I think a uniformed killer would have two major problems. Firstly, he risked getting blood and gore on his uniform, and he would surely have a problem explaining that to his sergeant on parade.

Secondly, if he was seen by a Whitechapel officer that officer would be aware that he was way off beat. He would therefore be attracting unwelcomed attention to himself (this would also apply if he was a former officer who retained his uniform), which he was presumably keen to avoid.

I suspect they bought their own uniforms and had them made to size and therefore could still own them.

I think JtR was extremely specific about not getting blood on himself and this was critical to his attacks, except for Kelly, where he had free reign of the home so to speak. This is evidence I have for this here. https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10998

There are tons of reasons for him to be off his beat and one of them is helping out looking for the ripper. He could be going home, going to work or claim he has been sent on a task.

Best of all, he may have inside knowledge of not just police beats, but stakeouts and would know who the plainclothed officers were.

[Batman]

Cutlass use was ceased in the 1860s, when they were deemed ineffectual against the Feniain uprising. They were retained under lock and key, for use once the riot act had been read.

Senior officers can wear a cutlass or sword on ceremonial duties only.

Monty

Thanks for that Monty.

[Monty]

Police training with swords.

It seems at least this sword was withdrawn from public use in 1887.

I am looking at this stuff from this website...

http://www.oldpolicecellsmuseum.org.uk/content/history/police_history/police_swords

It says some officers had them on ceremonial occasions. Now that would interest us a bit for say Mayor's Day or something on the Bank Holidays.

They even seem to do it today but is connected with rank. Seems it was back then too. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ted_Police.JPG

http://gmic.co.uk/topic/35875-victorian-met-police-sword/

This says...

P.C. in 1870 - carrying this pattern of sword. Each Station had it's own armoury of swords and pistols. These could be issued when required, or, when asked for by the constable - the station sgt. or, duty officer was responsible. It is not generally known that as late as the 1930's a constable could request a firearm if patrolling a very dangerous beat.

It seems Leicestershire Police Force withdrew the sword in 1867.

I think rather than focusing on what was standard police issue let's say in Whitechapel 1888, how an officer would have such a sword in certain situations for a reason. It seems soldiers on some Bank Holidays could carry theirs around.

Cutlass use was ceased in the 1860s, when they were deemed ineffectual against the Feniain uprising. They were retained under lock and key, for use once the riot act had been read.

Senior officers can wear a cutlass or sword on ceremonial duties only.

Monty

[Monty]

Policemen carried a whistle, a whistle which, in Bucks Row, PC Neil refrained from blowing.

I wonder why he didn't want to alert the local populace to a murder.

Because controlling a local populace at the scene would require a resource better established elsewhere.

Monty

[Monty]

Whistles were only to be used in an emergency.

Unfortunately Nichols was already deceased. Therefore no need to whistle.

It’s all in my book.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Policemen carried a whistle, a whistle which, in Bucks Row, PC Neil refrained from blowing.

Because another officer had arrived there already?

[Batman]

Police training with swords.

It seems at least this sword was withdrawn from public use in 1887.

I am looking at this stuff from this website...

http://www.oldpolicecellsmuseum.org.uk/content/history/police_history/police_swords

It says some officers had them on ceremonial occasions. Now that would interest us a bit for say Mayor's Day or something on the Bank Holidays.

They even seem to do it today but is connected with rank. Seems it was back then too. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ted_Police.JPG

http://gmic.co.uk/topic/35875-victorian-met-police-sword/

This says...

P.C. in 1870 - carrying this pattern of sword. Each Station had it's own armoury of swords and pistols. These could be issued when required, or, when asked for by the constable - the station sgt. or, duty officer was responsible. It is not generally known that as late as the 1930's a constable could request a firearm if patrolling a very dangerous beat.

It seems Leicestershire Police Force withdrew the sword in 1867.

I think rather than focusing on what was standard police issue let's say in Whitechapel 1888, how an officer would have such a sword in certain situations for a reason. It seems soldiers on some Bank Holidays could carry theirs around.

[Simon Wood]

Policemen carried a whistle, a whistle which, in Bucks Row, PC Neil refrained from blowing.

I wonder why he didn't want to alert the local populace to a murder.