Same motive = same killer

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: Do we know that? Have descriptions of every evisceration/torso murder in history given us sufficient detail to reach such a conclusion? I don't think so.

Then you should find out, if you are trying to refute what I say. The thing is, however, that evisceration/torso murders are extremely rare per se! And here we have two sets where the traits are very, very similar in many ways - at the same time, in the same town.
Long before anybody says "flaps" the assumption must be that of a single killer.
But go ahead, by all means, and search to your heart´s delight for eviscerators who take away abdominal walls in parts! I have done so, myself but I dare say you are more likely to burn for the task.
Say that you find an overwhelming ten (10) cases. Will that make it likely that two surfaced in the same town at the same time?
Any ideas about that?

It could easily point to more than one person improvising a similar, but not identical, solution independently.

If we have two eviscerators in the same town at the same time, it could point to both of them coming up with that improvisation independently, an improvisation that is very, very rare.
It COULD be.
But I would say that the odds are stacked astronomically against it. It would be like two serial killers "improvising" and coming up with the idea to paint one toenail on a victim blue, or like two such creatures coming up with the simultaneous idea of scalping their victims - in the same town at the same time.
It is the stuff of detective stories that I would not pay a penny for.
It is totally, totally unlikely to happen. Weren´t you supposed to be rational, Gareth...?
Why can you not be happy about how this parameter was sniffed out by Debra? It will help us understand the psyche of the killer in a much fuller way, and we will have a lot more to go on when looking for this rare killer.

I mean, given that different murderers throughout history have independently hit upon the idea of eviscerating, and/or sawing off arms, legs and heads, they can certainly come up with the idea of cutting open an abdomen in similar ways.

It´s that "can" that fuels your posts and thinking, and it ain´t sound, I´m afraid.
Yes, two killers CAN simultaneously think "Wow - what If I shave the head of this victim and draw a pygmée warrior on it - wouldn´t that be cool?"

The fact of the matter, though, is that when such things happen, there will be no doubt at all amongst psychologists, police, press, medicos or pygmés that the same man is responsible.

I can admit that such a thing is not physiologically impossible, and I know that many a weird, weird thing has happened throughout history. But that is as far as it goes when it comes to how much I will ponder ascribing to the idea of two simultaneously working killers who slay prostitutes in the same town, cutting some of them open ribs to pubes, taking out organs from them, removing colon parts from them, stealing rings from their fingers, abstaining from inflicting physical torture on them and cutting away abdominal walls in flaps from their bellies.

Sure it CAN happen. But it just won´t.

[Abby Normal]

Not quite, Abby. Chapman's three flaps were gouged out of a limited area on her right hand side, Kelly's three flaps were extensive and exposed her entire abdomen. Jackson's two flaps, however, were described as "slips" (strips) of flesh and, as I've shown, the dictionary specifically defines slips/strips as long and narrow. So, there are differences not only in terms of number, but also in the manner of execution, in either case.

So there was not just one way, in short.It was me, I believe, who first drew attention to the three flap method used to access Chapman's and Kelly's abdomen. I made much of it at the time, and was keen to promote the idea that there was some significance to be read into the fact. However, having thought it through, I jettisoned that view some time ago. The only significance I see in it now is that the killer had no fixed method for getting at what he wanted, and improvised different approaches on each occasion. I see no reason why any other improvising dissector should not come up with a similar method quite independently.

Hi Sam
Thanks. so chapman and Kelly unrelated now? JK. ; )

nonetheless, three victims had there abdomen cut away with a knife in flaps to gain access to the innards.

to me, regardless of the minute details is enough to link them.

[Abby Normal]

Equally there is no proof at all he did deliver there, and would not near Pickfords yards be more likely? Of course we cannot answer that.


I accept we are on different sides, but not that you are on the correct one. Flaps, sections in reality sections of body wall removed, no actual correlation between the various incidents or description, just jumping on a word and building a theory from it.
You maybe right, however I consider you are more probably up a creek without a paddle.


Not without proof of similarity of cuts or portions removed



Would you like an handkerchief my friend?



Steve

it better not be a red one! ; )

[Fisherman]

it better not be a red one! ; )

Never mind - that won´t show in the dark anyway...

[Elamarna]

Elamarna: Equally there is no proof at all he did deliver there, and would not near Pickfords yards be more likely? Of course we cannot answer that.

... and therefore we cannot rule Lechmere out even if we look for somebody with a connection to the building site; he may have had such a connection through his work, quite simply. And Pickfords carmen did not cart goods to Pickfords depots only - they delivered to many a site all over London and beyond.

I accept we are on different sides, but not that you are on the correct one.

I know that, Steve. We simply disagree, and I am correct, thats all.

No my friend you are probably wrong.

Flaps, sections in reality sections of body wall removed, no actual correlation between the various incidents or description, just jumping on a word and building a theory from it.

No, Steve. Any police force anywhere would jump just as much as I have and for equally logical reasons. It does not matter which peculiarity is common inbetween two or more murders, as long as they ARE peculiar they WILL form a foundation for an assumption of a common killer in cases like these.
That does not even have to be discussed.

That's just your opinion, and therefore no more relevant than any other

You maybe right, however I consider you are more probably up a creek without a paddle.

I may be wrong on the orinitaror being the same - although it is not to be expected that I am. I am not wrong and have never been when it comes to how the assumption [U]must be made.

Such assuredness come only from obsessive belief in ones own infaliabilty.

Not without proof of similarity of cuts or portions removed

Yes. These are facts REGARDLESS of how the flaps looked, as long as we know that they were all fairly large. A nitpicking besserwisser can make some sort of claim that Chapmans flaps were possibly miniscule, but BOTH Kellys and Jacksons were large - and there endeth your plea.

Not at all. It's not a plea, it's a reasoned response to the theory you propose.

Would you like an handkerchief my friend?

Thanks, but save it. You will need it.

I fear you will need it when do much of the argument is shown to be seriously flawed.

Steve

[Garza]

Question:

Has there ever been any example of a town or region where two eviscerating serial killers have worked simultaneously?

Yes.

There has likely been two serial killers working for the last 20 years on Long Island, New York.

One is called the Long Island Serial Killer or the LISK killer, he kills prostitutes, he is also a trophy collector. You might have heard about it in the news where they found 4 dead women and a cross-dressing male in the scrub lined up beside the high way.

On Long Island is also the Manorville Butcher - he is a torso killer. Tends to lay body parts in clumps in the woods in different places.

When LISK started to get infamous via media, body parts started turning up where Lisk stashed his bodies. Some sleuthers think that this torso killer did it to mark his territory as in "Long Island is my hunting ground."

Interestingly The Thame Torso killings was strictly a West London affair, then Jack the Ripper happened - got infamous, then a single torso part happens to be found in Jack the Ripper's hunting ground? Is it like a challenge of sorts?

[Fisherman]

No my friend you are probably wrong.


That's just your opinion, and therefore no more relevant than any other



Such assuredness come only from obsessive belief in ones own infaliabilty.




Not at all. It's not a plea, it's a reasoned response to the theory you propose.


I fear you will need it when do much of the argument is shown to be seriously flawed.

Steve

"Such assuredness come only from obsessive belief in ones own infaliabilty."

You need to brighten up somewhat, Steve, and accept things for what they are. I am not speaking about my "beliefs", I am talking about irreversible facts.

Keep the handkerchief.

[Sam Flynn]

Interestingly The Thame Torso killings was strictly a West London affair, then Jack the Ripper happened - got infamous, then a single torso part happens to be found in Jack the Ripper's hunting ground?

I've wondered about that, Garza, and it is interesting. However, the first torso murder after JTR rose to his height of infamy was Elizabeth Jackson, and that was a West London affair.

[Abby Normal]

Yes.

There has likely been two serial killers working for the last 20 years on Long Island, New York.

One is called the Long Island Serial Killer or the LISK killer, he kills prostitutes, he is also a trophy collector. You might have heard about it in the news where they found 4 dead women and a cross-dressing male in the scrub lined up beside the high way.

On Long Island is also the Manorville Butcher - he is a torso killer. Tends to lay body parts in clumps in the woods in different places.

When LISK started to get infamous via media, body parts started turning up where Lisk stashed his bodies. Some sleuthers think that this torso killer did it to mark his territory as in "Long Island is my hunting ground."

Interestingly The Thame Torso killings was strictly a West London affair, then Jack the Ripper happened - got infamous, then a single torso part happens to be found in Jack the Ripper's hunting ground? Is it like a challenge of sorts?

Hi Garza
dosnt Jessica taylor and Jane doe # 6 link the two series?

I believe both victims had body parts dismemebered and dumped in both sites.

also, body parts of the victims linked definitively to the LISK have been found so he is also a dismemberer.

also, Melissa Barthelemy(definite LISK victim) had made calls to Manorville around the time of her death.

also, both series involve males and females-so another link.(is the killer more than likely bi sexual?)

and any way the question actually is not if two dismemberers have worked in the same town/time, but if two "eviscerators" have. meaning a serial killer is cutting up and into bodies to get at internal organs. I think the distinction is made since the former could just be MO in helping dispose of a body, whereas the latter goes to sig, and is much more rare.

and re idea of hunting ground/challenge to another serial killer. Interesting, but IMHO its much more likely that its the same man whos just changing (maybe slightly) the dump site.

I also see no special significance(to the killer) to where Lisk/Manorville killer is dumping or how dumping, unlike the torsoripper.

[Sam Flynn]

nonetheless, three victims had there abdomen cut away with a knife in flaps to gain access to the innards.

That's three out of ten cases (not counting Stride), if we start in 1873. Not much of a tally on which to discern a consistent pattern. What about the other seven?

[Sam Flynn]

and any way the question actually is not if two dismemberers have worked in the same town/time, but if two "eviscerators" have. meaning a serial killer is cutting up and into bodies to get at internal organs. I think the distinction is made since the former could just be MO in helping dispose of a body, whereas the latter goes to sig, and is much more rare.

Was the TK an eviscerator, though, or someone who happened to eviscerate in order to facilitate the disposal of anonymised victims? Was Dahmer an eviscerator? Was Nilsen? Was Gein, or any other killer who happened to cut through their victims' abdomens?

[Fisherman]

Yes.

There has likely been two serial killers working for the last 20 years on Long Island, New York.

One is called the Long Island Serial Killer or the LISK killer, he kills prostitutes, he is also a trophy collector. You might have heard about it in the news where they found 4 dead women and a cross-dressing male in the scrub lined up beside the high way.

On Long Island is also the Manorville Butcher - he is a torso killer. Tends to lay body parts in clumps in the woods in different places.

When LISK started to get infamous via media, body parts started turning up where Lisk stashed his bodies. Some sleuthers think that this torso killer did it to mark his territory as in "Long Island is my hunting ground."

Interestingly The Thame Torso killings was strictly a West London affair, then Jack the Ripper happened - got infamous, then a single torso part happens to be found in Jack the Ripper's hunting ground? Is it like a challenge of sorts?

Interesting, of course - and I have heard about the Long Island murders. But I take it it is no proven thing that there really ARE two serialists at work?

One of the things that have arrived with the great media interest in serial killing will be - if I am on the money - an increased insight on behalf of the serialists of how to behave so as not to be traceable.

My guess - and it is no more than that, I freely admit that much - is that there are today serialists who manage to stay uncaught on behalf of how the swithch MO:s, fae signatures and move over great areas.

Maybe the Long Island case is one of a serialist who employs such tactics, I don´t know - I am not well enough read up on it.

Anyhow, I hear your suggestion, but I will point out - as I have often stated - that regadless if we DO find a town where two eviscerators have worked simultaneously, it will only go to prove that such a thing is incredibly rare.

[Fisherman]

Hi Garza
dosnt Jessica taylor and Jane doe # 6 link the two series?

I believe both victims had body parts dismemebered and dumped in both sites.

also, body parts of the victims linked definitively to the LISK have been found so he is also a dismemberer.

also, Melissa Barthelemy(definite LISK victim) had made calls to Manorville around the time of her death.

also, both series involve males and females-so another link.(is the killer more than likely bi sexual?)

and any way the question actually is not if two dismemberers have worked in the same town/time, but if two "eviscerators" have. meaning a serial killer is cutting up and into bodies to get at internal organs. I think the distinction is made since the former could just be MO in helping dispose of a body, whereas the latter goes to sig, and is much more rare.

and re idea of hunting ground/challenge to another serial killer. Interesting, but IMHO its much more likely that its the same man whos just changing (maybe slightly) the dump site.

I also see no special significance(to the killer) to where Lisk/Manorville killer is dumping or how dumping, unlike the torsoripper.

Apparently, you knew this case a lot better than I do, Abby. And it would seem it is not a clear-cut example of two eviscerators, the way it stands. The future may hold the solution to that riddle.

[Fisherman]

Was the TK an eviscerator, though, or someone who happened to eviscerate in order to facilitate the disposal of anonymised victims? Was Dahmer an eviscerator? Was Nilsen? Was Gein, or any other killer who happened to cut through their victims' abdomens?

Once you pluck out innards from a body, you become an eviscerator. The grounds for doing it may vary, but that does not change the fact that you eviscerate when you take out parts from inside a body.

Maybe we can agree on that much, at least?

A dictionary example looked like this:

"The ancient Egyptiand used to eviscerate bodies before mummifying them"

Evisceration is not an evil thing per se. But taking out organs IS eviscerating.

[Sam Flynn]

There is evisceration as a means to an end, then there is evisceration as an end in itself.