Same motive = same killer

[Fisherman]

great invention, the cart

Touché, Abby - the elegance!!

[barnflatwyngarde]

tobin cant be Bible John, because the majority of his victims were found in a different location than the bible john series! ; )

It seems that Bible John was probably a man called John McInnes.
Police managed to get some DNA from one of the victims, and it was a close match to the DNA given by relatives of McInnes for comparison.

McInnes's body was exhumed, but unfortunately the body was so badly decomposed that no DNA could be extracted.

Therefore although McInnes is technically in the clear, the close match of DNA from one of the victims to that of Mcinnes's relatives makes the case against him, to my mind, a very compelling one.

[Fisherman]

tobin cant be Bible John, because the majority of his victims were found in a different location than the bible john series! ; )

It seems that Bible John was probably a man called John McInnes.
Police managed to get some DNA from one of the victims, and it was a close match to the DNA given by relatives of McInnes for comparison.

McInnes's body was exhumed, but unfortunately the body was so badly decomposed that no DNA could be extracted.

Therefore although McInnes is technically in the clear, the close match of DNA from one of the victims to that of Mcinnes's relatives makes the case against him, to my mind, a very compelling one.

I have read numerous bits of information about the case, one of them being that there was only DNA in the third Bibe John case, and that this DNA was not good enough to allow for a comparison.
The information about McInnes´ relatives DNA being a close match is new to me.
As such, I don´t have any beef in the case - I am only pointing to what David Wilson has said. However, a quick check turned up this:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12036852.DNA_tests_clear_Bible_John_suspect/

...which seems to defuse the DNA taken from relatives. It´s from 1996, I believe.

[Abby Normal]

tobin cant be Bible John, because the majority of his victims were found in a different location than the bible john series! ; )

It seems that Bible John was probably a man called John McInnes.
Police managed to get some DNA from one of the victims, and it was a close match to the DNA given by relatives of McInnes for comparison.

McInnes's body was exhumed, but unfortunately the body was so badly decomposed that no DNA could be extracted.

Therefore although McInnes is technically in the clear, the close match of DNA from one of the victims to that of Mcinnes's relatives makes the case against him, to my mind, a very compelling one.

Hi Barn
the DNA is no good. I was just kidding about tobin-hence the winky thing. He was Bible John-no doubt.

[Fisherman]

I have read a lot about Bible John over the years, and what strikes me now, if Tobin was the killer, is how I have formed a picture over the years of a skilled, clever, smooth, intelligent killer with the ability to outsmart the police.

But Tobin? A sad looser, a half-baked human, a low-life pile of crap with a well deserved low degree of self-esteem...?

I think there may be a lesson to learn from this.

[jerryd]

I have read a lot about Bible John over the years, and what strikes me now, if Tobin was the killer, is how I have formed a picture over the years of a skilled, clever, smooth, intelligent killer with the ability to outsmart the police.

But Tobin? A sad looser, a half-baked human, a low-life pile of crap with a well deserved low degree of self-esteem...?

I think there may be a lesson to learn from this.

I don't know much about Bible John, but I happened to see a youtube video on the Happy Face Killer, Keith Jesperson, last night. The thing that struck me in a phone interview with him, was when asked why he strangled all the victims (8) first, he said well, it worked with the first one so I kept doing it with the rest. He relished in the fact he was getting away with it. It motivated him to continue. In his first murder he was rather surprised because a lady said her boyfriend, who was not the killer, did it. This motivated him to write a letter taking responsibility because he couldn't stand someone else taking credit. All his letters included a smiley face and thus his sobriquet.

Wonder if any of these same thoughts may apply to the Whitechapel Murderer?

[RockySullivan]

I don't know much about Bible John, but I happened to see a youtube video on the Happy Face Killer, Keith Jesperson, last night. The thing that struck me in a phone interview with him, was when asked why he strangled all the victims (8) first, he said well, it worked with the first one so I kept doing it with the rest. He relished in the fact he was getting away with it. It motivated him to continue. In his first murder he was rather surprised because a lady said her boyfriend, who was not the killer, did it. This motivated him to write a letter taking responsibility because he couldn't stand someone else taking credit. All his letters included a smiley face and thus his sobriquet.

Wonder if any of these same thoughts may apply to the Whitechapel Murderer?

jerry it seems like alot of SKs say this, i think rifkin said it was a like a superstition

[Fisherman]

I don't know much about Bible John, but I happened to see a youtube video on the Happy Face Killer, Keith Jesperson, last night. The thing that struck me in a phone interview with him, was when asked why he strangled all the victims (8) first, he said well, it worked with the first one so I kept doing it with the rest. He relished in the fact he was getting away with it. It motivated him to continue. In his first murder he was rather surprised because a lady said her boyfriend, who was not the killer, did it. This motivated him to write a letter taking responsibility because he couldn't stand someone else taking credit. All his letters included a smiley face and thus his sobriquet.

Wonder if any of these same thoughts may apply to the Whitechapel Murderer?

So, the 5:th of October letter, is that what you are thinking of? Or?

The trademark I perceive is something I don´t think the killer tried to impress upon the public. I think it was ritualistic, and rituals are normally private things.
It is to a significant extent pure luck that allows us to see it. And I think there was very likely once a lot more to see than what was left.


PS. Jesperson was a family man, like Lechmere. And a transporter of goods, like Lechmere.
Just saying.

[Abby Normal]

I have read a lot about Bible John over the years, and what strikes me now, if Tobin was the killer, is how I have formed a picture over the years of a skilled, clever, smooth, intelligent killer with the ability to outsmart the police.

But Tobin? A sad looser, a half-baked human, a low-life pile of crap with a well deserved low degree of self-esteem...?

I think there may be a lesson to learn from this.

you cant judge a book by its cover..or maybe the cover by the book? LOL!

SKs span the range of low life thug losers who actually look like it-like Lucas, all the way to suave smart good looking guys like bundy.

[RockySullivan]

The Star was the only paper to cover the incident in-depth, and even it reported that "the man's statement is not wholly accepted."

As I said upthread it's interesting that Schwartz went to the Star. He says the man chased him to the railway arches where the torso would be found a year later. He lived on block from the dumpsite. He goes to the star and in this story the man now has a knife. Someone shouts Lipski to him and the murder is in the yard of a jewish club. Within a short time there's graffiti abot juwes at the next murder. I think you said once jerry you thought that Mellor would have been involved in taking Schwartz story? And when Mellor says he thinks Clearly is the ex-compositor who worked for the The Globe with no roof to his mouth, John Arnold was not a compositor? But did he have a cleft palate?

[Fisherman]

you cant judge a book by its cover..or maybe the cover by the book? LOL!

SKs span the range of low life thug losers who actually look like it-like Lucas, all the way to suave smart good looking guys like bundy.

Not judging Bundy by the cover was always a very good idea...

What I am after is how we sometimes have a propensity to make shining heroes of abominable people, Abby.

[Michael W Richards]

I don't know much about Bible John, but I happened to see a youtube video on the Happy Face Killer, Keith Jesperson, last night. The thing that struck me in a phone interview with him, was when asked why he strangled all the victims (8) first, he said well, it worked with the first one so I kept doing it with the rest. He relished in the fact he was getting away with it. It motivated him to continue. In his first murder he was rather surprised because a lady said her boyfriend, who was not the killer, did it. This motivated him to write a letter taking responsibility because he couldn't stand someone else taking credit. All his letters included a smiley face and thus his sobriquet.

Wonder if any of these same thoughts may apply to the Whitechapel Murderer?

The part in bold above Jerry...if we look at the killer of Polly then Annie as one man, can you see any reason why his attitude might not be exactly the same as above? Posing as a client, choking or strangling, then cutting the throat twice..moving on to mutilations of the abdomen? In threads like this people seem happy to imagine multiple killers killing in a multitude of ways and with varying objectives. Don't seem to take into account killers who kill one way, succeed, and then continue to kill that same way based on the confidence they have gained.

[RockySullivan]

Hurley says he lives at 10 Annibal St, Annibal Place?

Jeremiah Hurley deposed, - I live at 10 Annibal-place, Annibal-street, and am a carman, and am in the employ of John Smithers, of Well-street. A policeman called me at 5 o'clock, and I am always called in that manner. When there is a change of policemen they continue to call me. I have to be at work at half-past 5. On the morning of the 10th inst. I left home at 25 minutes to 6. As I was coming round Phillip-street into Pinchin-street I saw a man, who had the appearance of a tailor, standing at the corner of Pinchin-street. The man appeared as though he was waiting to go to work. I saw no one else until I got to the arch where the body was lying. I there saw an inspector and an officer in plain clothes. At that time the body had been found.

Detective-Inspector Henry Moore said, - I have charge of this case under the direction of Superintendent Arnold. I produce a plan of Pinchin-street and surrounding neighbourhood, and it is an accurate one. The red cross on the plan denotes the position in which the body was found. Every effort had been made to identify the body, but without success. There was nothing to show how the body came there or who placed it in the position in which it was found. I have had the chemise that was found on the body cleansed, and I now produce it. (The chemise was 37in. in length, common material, and stitched, but certainly not by an experienced needlewoman. It had evidently been home-made by a poor person.)

The CORONER here read a statement taken down by the police from the man who was sleeping with Hurley, and it simply corroborated the latter's evidence.

does anyone have that statement?

[jerryd]

Hurley says he lives at 10 Annibal St, Annibal Place?

Jeremiah Hurley deposed, - I live at 10 Annibal-place, Annibal-street, and am a carman, and am in the employ of John Smithers, of Well-street. A policeman called me at 5 o'clock, and I am always called in that manner. When there is a change of policemen they continue to call me. I have to be at work at half-past 5. On the morning of the 10th inst. I left home at 25 minutes to 6. As I was coming round Phillip-street into Pinchin-street I saw a man, who had the appearance of a tailor, standing at the corner of Pinchin-street. The man appeared as though he was waiting to go to work. I saw no one else until I got to the arch where the body was lying. I there saw an inspector and an officer in plain clothes. At that time the body had been found.

Detective-Inspector Henry Moore said, - I have charge of this case under the direction of Superintendent Arnold. I produce a plan of Pinchin-street and surrounding neighbourhood, and it is an accurate one. The red cross on the plan denotes the position in which the body was found. Every effort had been made to identify the body, but without success. There was nothing to show how the body came there or who placed it in the position in which it was found. I have had the chemise that was found on the body cleansed, and I now produce it. (The chemise was 37in. in length, common material, and stitched, but certainly not by an experienced needlewoman. It had evidently been home-made by a poor person.)

The CORONER here read a statement taken down by the police from the man who was sleeping with Hurley, and it simply corroborated the latter's evidence.

does anyone have that statement?

Hurley wasn't sleeping under the arch. I think that was a misprint by someone. The Annibal address was also a mishearing of the street he lived on, which was 10 Ellen Place, Ellen Street.

[jerryd]

Christer,

This is the tie in to the journalist connection. This is from the Echo on September 18th, 1888:

Is there a clue? The police apparently believe there is. The following facts have just come to hand in connection with it:- On the day of the murder (the 8th inst.) a man was seen in the lavatory of the City News Rooms, 4 Ludgate circus buildings, changing his clothes. He departed hurriedly, leaving behind him a pair of trousers, a shirt, and a pair of socks. Unfortunately no one connected with the establishment saw the man, or he would certainly have been stopped and questioned as to why he was changing his clothes there, and leaving the old ones behind.
Mr. Walker, the proprietor of the news rooms, states that he did not hear of the occurrence until late in the afternoon, when his attention was called to the clothes in the lavatory. He did not at the time attach any importance to the fact, and the clothes were thrown into the dust box, and placed outside, being carted away in the City Sewers cart on the Monday. On the following Tuesday, however, he received a visit from a man who said he was a police officer, and asked for the clothes which had been left there on the Saturday. Mr. walker replied that if he wanted them he would have to go to the Commissioners of the City Sewers, telling him at the same time what he had done with them. Two detectives called on Thursday last, and had an interview with Mr. Walker, and they succeeded in finding a man who saw the visitor changing his clothes in the lavatory. He has given the police a description of him. He is stated to be a man of respectable appearance, about thirty years of age, and wearing a dark moustache. The police are very reticent about the matter, and decline to give any information on the subject. They evidently attach some importance to the affair. Mr. Walker again received a visit from two detectives yesterday morning. The police are now trying to trace the clothes. There is a hope that they may furnish some clue which will lead to the identity of the man they are seeking.

Notice the address in the above article of the City News Rooms, at No. 4 Ludgate Circus. That address is caddy corner to the King Lud Pub to the SW. The King Lud Pub is where John Arnold supposedly ran onto his informant the following year on almost the exact same date. The Central News Agency had the address of No. 5 New Bridge Street, which is either right next door or the same building as 4, Ludgate Circus. Are the City News Rooms aka the Central News Agency? The journalist, newsvendor, etc. connection combined with the John Arnold story all seems too much for coincidence in my mind.