Same motive = same killer

[curious]

Morbid as it sounds, can't help wondering if the baby was subjected to any dissection or if he just dumped it?

I know. We can't help wondering what happened, can we? what the steps were, how things went down.

[Abby Normal]

I know. We can't help wondering what happened, can we? what the steps were, how things went down.

Lol. That’s for sure curious.

One of the things that really throws me for a loop is the pinchin street torso in the heart of the ripper territory.

For the life of me everyone, I can’t help think something is going on here, other than just two totally separate serial killers.

[jerryd]

For the life of me everyone, I can’t help think something is going on here,

I agree with you, Abby.

Especially considering that particular location was foreseen and mentioned of either a murder, or a good place for one, by a Charing Cross newsvendor (John Arnold) and the lead investigative officer in the ripper case (Henry Moore) before it even happened.

[curious]

Lol. That’s for sure curious.

One of the things that really throws me for a loop is the pinchin street torso in the heart of the ripper territory.

For the life of me everyone, I can’t help think something is going on here, other than just two totally separate serial killers.

Showing out for each other?

[jerryd]

** He had to be able to obtain enough Lime/Carbolic Acid or whatever he used to cut down the smell. He had to cover the entire body. So, how was it purchased? Was it in a solid form that he mixed with water? How did it arrive? How did he learn to work with it in order not to harm himself? Does his use of it indicate a possible occupation for the killer?

Hi Curious,

In searching for uses of carbolic acid, I found the following:

RE: Billingsgate Market

All fish condemned by its inspectors are immediately conveyed to a waiting barge, treated with carbolic acid and sent to fertilizing works at Rainham, (Interesting, considering the location of the 1887 torso)

Use by the Board of Works

Some years ago the Board of Works of the Holborn district, in their zeal for enforcing the due observance of the Sabbath, ventured on the heroic measure of bringing watering-carts into Leather-lane on Sunday morning and drenching the wares of the costermongers with diluted carbolic acid.

Regarding the Board of Works

Awhile back, I looked into the coincidental locations and people working for the Board of Works in the ripper series. For example, several of the TCR torso parts were recovered by a BOW employee. George Lusk a member of the Metropolitan Board of Works and was the recipient of a kidney from Catherine Eddowes by post. The Pinchin torso was found in an archway that was adjacent to Board of Works land. A street sweeper was near the Pinchin archway at the time of the discovery. The Tabram murder and emma Smith attack were next to the Whitechapel BOW incinerator. The nightwatchmen for the BOW was working near the Nichols crime scene. A local BOW office was located near the Rose Mylett murder scene. Blenkinsop was overseeing road work in St James Square the night of the Eddowes murder. The Whitechapel BOW office was located just south of Castle Alley in Goodman's Fields close to Albert Bachert's house. The embankments were constructed and maintained by the Board of Works. Construction of Scotland yard was overseen by the Board of Works. The main office of the Board of Works was across the street from where John Arnold peddled his newspapers in Charing Cross. Also not far from Whitehall and the New Scotland Yard.

Regarding "Scavengers" or Street cleaners.

*At half-past 10 yesterday morning the dead body of a woman, with her head almost severed from her body, was found in an untenanted outhouse or shed in Dorset-court, Dorset-street, Commercial-street, Spitalfields. It had evidently been there for some hours, but several scavengers who were in the court at nine o'clock declare that the body was not there then. They might, however, have been mistaken, as the place is very dark. (MJK murder)

*Constable Neale at once called for assistance, and with the help of some scavengers who were cleaning the roads at the time, managed to carry the body to the mortuary, which is situated in the Pavilion Yard close by.(Polly Nichols murder)

*There were two waggons in the roadway - one was a brewer's dray, the other a scavenger's cart. (Alice McKenzie murder)


And last, Regarding the Commercial Street tramway construction.

Would its construction also have been overseen by the BOW? I will have to look and see.

From a dissertation by Bernard Brown here on Casebook entitled Inspector Spratling's Pass.

Back in Whitechapel, the North Metropolitan Tramways Act, 1887, (50 Victoria. CH X 1 1) had received the Royal Assent on 29th March 1888 and authorised the company "To lay down and maintain a new tramway in Commercial Street."
Gangs of navvies descended on Whitechapel and Spitalfields and work commenced on digging up the entire length of Commercial Street and laying track. The work continued day and night until completion in November 1888. During the construction Emma Smith, Martha Tabram, Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were murdered. Coincidence?
The diverted horse-drawn traffic from Commercial Street was horrendous and the `ladies of the night and their clients were hardly able to conduct their business. Could the disruption explain why there were no murders during October and why Mary Kelly was killed indoors?
On 15th November 1888, a week after Kelly s murder, the Commercial Street tramway finally opened with a line of brownpainted horse trams running between Bloomsbury and Poplar (fare 3d). Near the latter line on 20th December 1888 the body of Rose Mylett was found just off the High Street.

[jerryd]

To add just a bit more to the Board of Works.

Tite Street is named after William Tite who was a member of the Metropolitan Board of Works, responsible for the construction of Chelsea Embankment to the south of Tite Street and some railway station buildings. (https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Tite_Street)

Tite street was also home of the Shelley estate, where Elizabeth Jackson's thigh was found in the garden of the estate wrapped in the pocket of a costermonger's apron. Tite street was built by the Board of Works to accommodate the construction of the Chelsea Embankment. The BOW had tight control over the architects building homes there. The architects were embroiled in disputes with Metropolitan Board of Works over their designs. The end result was a compromise.


Also, I mentioned earlier in the thread a man named William Wainwright. He was the brother of Henry Wainwright, murderer of Harriet Lane. Wainwright was also a member of the Metropolitan Board of Works.

Maybe someone was ticked off at the Board of Works?

Sorry I got off track. One thing led to another in my response to Curious about carbolic acid.

[Sam Flynn]

One of the things that really throws me for a loop is the pinchin street torso in the heart of the ripper territory.

It isn't, strictly speaking. If the Ripper's territory had a heart as such, it was further to the north in Spitalfields, even if one includes Stride in the Canon.

[Harry D]

I agree with you, Abby.

Especially considering that particular location was foreseen and mentioned of either a murder, or a good place for one, by a Charing Cross newsvendor (John Arnold) and the lead investigative officer in the ripper case (Henry Moore) before it even happened.

There was also another Torso murder that was predicted ahead of time. I can't remember the exact one but I posted the newspaper snippet awhile ago.

[Fisherman]

Odd that, isn't it?

No, not in the slightest.

[Fisherman]

Why do there have to be other examples to make something plausible? There is a first time for everything.

And indeed, it would be the first and only time such a thing had happened in the annals of criminal history. I am not saying that it could not have been. I am saying that it is extremely unlikley to happen.

Think of it like this, if you will, Herlock. There are as far as I know no other recorded cases where serial killers have cut the necks, opened up the abdomens, taken out the uteri and cut away the abdominal wall in large sections from their victims.
So, does that mean that no two such cases could happen? No, it only means that it is unlikely that such a thing would occur.
But - and this is the BIG but - IF it happened, why on earth would it happen in the same city at the same time? If we had two such cases, one in London in 1888 and one in Lima in 1963, it would be odd enough. But the same city? At the same time?


And still, it is not impossible. It is only unlikely in the extreme. Which is what I am saying.

What if it happened but hasn’t been recorded? If it’s that obvious why isn’t it taken as read that there was one killer? Why do intelligent, knowledgeable people like Sam and Steve for example disagree if it’s so obvious? If it’s so obvious they would agree. Or are you questioning their intelligence or integrity? I’ve never seen any reason to question either. Or an ex-copper like Trevor? I’m not saying that you can’t be right Fish but I just can’t understand why you will allow of no possibility of being wrong?

I am not questioning their intelligence. Nor am I questioning their integrity. But I am questioning their judgment. I must, you see. The alternative would be to say "they are probably right". But the fact of the matter is that they know quite well - being the intelligent posters they are - that there are no other cases where two or more serial killers in the same geographical area and time have produced victims with so far-reaching and unusual damages.
Ask them, by all means. See what theu come up with. They come up with the exact same thing as you have come up with - the notion that such a thing could not be impossible. And that´s fine. I agree. Impossible it is not.
But it is nevertheless extremely unlikely to occur. You can ask them that too, and they will go "Well, anybody can open up an abdomen, and it may have looked dissimilar, and the flaps can have been for various reasons, as can the taking of the uteri". And yes, they CAN have been - but it is - once more - unlikely in the extreme that two serialists in the same town and at the same time would come up with varying reasons for cutting out uteri, for opening up abdomens, for taking the abdominal wall away, for cutting the necks.
And even if we are hellbent on believing in two killers, it still remains that this is by far and away a much unlikelier solution.
[/QUOTE]

For me the Ripper series is a pretty obvious one therefore there’s likely to be another explaination for the Torso series. For me also, over-confidence is the curse of Ripper studies or indeed the study of any historical crimes (especially when they occurred 130 years ago.)

But what if i say that it is overconfident to say that the Ripper series is a pretty obvious one? What if I say that I think that is being so cocky it becomes a curse of the Ripper studies, and that we need to be much less confident in stating that we know the motivation and ideas behind either series?
You see, every medal has two sides to it. And what I am saying has very little to do with overconfidence - I am leaning against how the police work, and have worked, in hundreds of serial killer cases. Every time they have a series of killings they accept is the work of a serial killer, that is because of inherent similarities found on the murder sites. And in m any cases, a lot less has been used to determine the existence of a serial killer than the parameters we have at hand!

So please don´t call me overconfident. Check the facts, ask the ones with expert knowledge and experience, and then come back to me if you are still not convinced.

[Fisherman]

or not at all

Curious, we cannot have a discussion where you dismiss the fact that the Ripper carried a knofe as being indicative of a higher level of premeditation. It is, quite simply. The indication can be right or wrong, but taken on it´s own, that´s what it tells us.

And why are we discussing how the torso man must have been very strong? The Ripper was equally described as a very strong man, so how does that tell us thatb they were not the same man...?

[curious]

Hi Curious,

In searching for uses of carbolic acid, I found the following:

RE: Billingsgate Market

All fish condemned by its inspectors are immediately conveyed to a waiting barge, treated with carbolic acid and sent to fertilizing works at Rainham, (Interesting, considering the location of the 1887 torso)

Use by the Board of Works

Some years ago the Board of Works of the Holborn district, in their zeal for enforcing the due observance of the Sabbath, ventured on the heroic measure of bringing watering-carts into Leather-lane on Sunday morning and drenching the wares of the costermongers with diluted carbolic acid.

Regarding the Board of Works

Awhile back, I looked into the coincidental locations and people working for the Board of Works in the ripper series. For example, several of the TCR torso parts were recovered by a BOW employee. George Lusk a member of the Metropolitan Board of Works and was the recipient of a kidney from Catherine Eddowes by post. The Pinchin torso was found in an archway that was adjacent to Board of Works land. A street sweeper was near the Pinchin archway at the time of the discovery. The Tabram murder and emma Smith attack were next to the Whitechapel BOW incinerator. The nightwatchmen for the BOW was working near the Nichols crime scene. A local BOW office was located near the Rose Mylett murder scene. Blenkinsop was overseeing road work in St James Square the night of the Eddowes murder. The Whitechapel BOW office was located just south of Castle Alley in Goodman's Fields close to Albert Bachert's house. The embankments were constructed and maintained by the Board of Works. Construction of Scotland yard was overseen by the Board of Works. The main office of the Board of Works was across the street from where John Arnold peddled his newspapers in Charing Cross. Also not far from Whitehall and the New Scotland Yard.

Regarding "Scavengers" or Street cleaners.

*At half-past 10 yesterday morning the dead body of a woman, with her head almost severed from her body, was found in an untenanted outhouse or shed in Dorset-court, Dorset-street, Commercial-street, Spitalfields. It had evidently been there for some hours, but several scavengers who were in the court at nine o'clock declare that the body was not there then. They might, however, have been mistaken, as the place is very dark. (MJK murder)

*Constable Neale at once called for assistance, and with the help of some scavengers who were cleaning the roads at the time, managed to carry the body to the mortuary, which is situated in the Pavilion Yard close by.(Polly Nichols murder)

*There were two waggons in the roadway - one was a brewer's dray, the other a scavenger's cart. (Alice McKenzie murder)


And last, Regarding the Commercial Street tramway construction.

Would its construction also have been overseen by the BOW? I will have to look and see.

From a dissertation by Bernard Brown here on Casebook entitled Inspector Spratling's Pass.

Back in Whitechapel, the North Metropolitan Tramways Act, 1887, (50 Victoria. CH X 1 1) had received the Royal Assent on 29th March 1888 and authorised the company "To lay down and maintain a new tramway in Commercial Street."
Gangs of navvies descended on Whitechapel and Spitalfields and work commenced on digging up the entire length of Commercial Street and laying track. The work continued day and night until completion in November 1888. During the construction Emma Smith, Martha Tabram, Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were murdered. Coincidence?
The diverted horse-drawn traffic from Commercial Street was horrendous and the `ladies of the night and their clients were hardly able to conduct their business. Could the disruption explain why there were no murders during October and why Mary Kelly was killed indoors?
On 15th November 1888, a week after Kelly s murder, the Commercial Street tramway finally opened with a line of brownpainted horse trams running between Bloomsbury and Poplar (fare 3d). Near the latter line on 20th December 1888 the body of Rose Mylett was found just off the High Street.

Wonderful post, Jerry! Thanks so much.

[Sam Flynn]

There are as far as I know no other recorded cases where serial killers have cut the necks, opened up the abdomens, taken out the uteri and cut away the abdominal wall in large sections from their victims.

Kindly desist from trotting out that inaccurate and misleading statement.

[Fisherman]

The Ripper victims died of cut throats, so stop deliberately fudging things in favour of your argument by over-generalising to "cut necks".

The torso victims ALSO had their throats cut, Gareth. What the Ripper victims died of, we do not know. It may have been from strangulation in f ex Nichols´ case. So don´t say I am fudging anything, please. I have acknowledged a hundred times that we MAY be speaking of different reasons for cutting the necks, but I have equally many times said that we don´t know, and that the medicos DID suggest that the cause of death may well have been the severing of the neck in some torso cases. Maybe you should replace the false accusations with the facts?

There was only one torso case where the abdomen was opened and the uterus removed.

There was only one such case where this was proven. But the Whitehall victim also lacked the uterus, and that may just as well have been a case of the killer taking it as a case of her loosing it - whoops! - by coincidence. Plus the Rainham torso had the abdomen cut open all the way from the cut sternum down to the pelvis. Like you say when it suits you - let´s be precise.

In contrast, 3 out of 4 of the Ripper's evisceration victims had their uteri removed, and under far less favourable conditions than those which the torso killer(s) enjoyed.

Don´t make the mistake of predisposing that the killer would take the uterus out every time he had the chance to, Gareth. If that was the case, why did he not take Chapmans kidney/s? Why did he only cut two faces?
We do not know that he always had the same agenda, the same list of wishes. And only three, not four, of the canonicals had their uteri removed, by the way.
As I said, it may be a case of 60 per cent in the Ripper series and 50 in the Torso series. That is not much of a difference, is it?

The only victim to have had the abdominal wall removed "in large sections" was Mary Kelly. None of the others did, by a country mile.

THAT is how "deliberately fudging" looks. The flaps may well have been very similar in size.

Stick to the facts, be objective, and stop twisting the evidence.

Oh, for the shame! Try and prove that the flaps were large in Kellys case and small in the others - try to prove that they differed in any way, but for the number of them, and we can all see who is twisting the evidence.

Here´s my advice: Try fighting the facts instead of accusing me of twisting them. It´s harder, I know, but that is what it takes.

[curious]

To add just a bit more to the Board of Works.

Tite Street is named after William Tite who was a member of the Metropolitan Board of Works, responsible for the construction of Chelsea Embankment to the south of Tite Street and some railway station buildings. (https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Tite_Street)

Tite street was also home of the Shelley estate, where Elizabeth Jackson's thigh was found in the garden of the estate wrapped in the pocket of a costermonger's apron. Tite street was built by the Board of Works to accommodate the construction of the Chelsea Embankment. The BOW had tight control over the architects building homes there. The architects were embroiled in disputes with Metropolitan Board of Works over their designs. The end result was a compromise.


Also, I mentioned earlier in the thread a man named William Wainwright. He was the brother of Henry Wainwright, murderer of Harriet Lane. Wainwright was also a member of the Metropolitan Board of Works.

Maybe someone was ticked off at the Board of Works?

Sorry I got off track. One thing led to another in my response to Curious about carbolic acid.

Love it! Thanks. Interesting and thought provoking. I'm still curious about the carbolic acid -- but have other work I need to get to. Very kind of you to help me out.