Same motive = same killer

[Elamarna]

nice back track. I'm not buying it either. theres been a lot of great stuff and if you and mister superficial would stop the knee jerk crap against anything fish says you might just learn something.

Hi Abby

Yes there has been great stuff on here, but none of it suggests the same motive quoted in the thread title. So no backtracking at all. The discussion I am alluding to is not the Torsos in general but the title of the thread.


I always have respected your viewpoint even if I disagree with it. And considering the supportive post I gave to you a week or so back, I find this response slightly disappointing.


All the best as always


Steve

[Sam Flynn]

I think the general consensus is that the torso killer had access to transport. And once you have, just about all of London becomes accessible in a short time.

Why travel ALL the way from the East End to dump body-parts predominantly - almost exclusively - more than 10 miles away in Southwest London? Pinchin Street aside, Tottenham Court Rd is the nearest to Whitechapel, but even that's a fair trek away from Ripper Central.

[jerryd]

This, however, would require that the killer brought a fine-toothed saw along to the vaults, something that sounds decidedly odd to my ears, so I am opting for the idea that the victim was killed some place else.

A couple of the men left their tools right there in the vault daily. Carpenters use saws don't they? I think a saw would have been part of the tool kit for a carpenter.

[jerryd]

So instead of having to argue for a man who killed en route to work, you have a guy that dumped en route to work. That´s kind of funny.
I know about the possible Wildbore connection in Backchurch Lane - and I think it is quite possible that there WAS a connection through the name. I was not aware of the timber holds in the docks. Any which way, what are you envisaging here? That Wildbore carted material from there, and brought the torso along to dump it underways? Or that he bore a grudge against his relative - if he WAS a relative - in Backchurch lane? Or that he found it convenient to take the torso along as he visited there?

Not en route to work, en route home. That is if she was killed and dismembered in the vault. The arm would have possibly been dropped on his way home; thrown over the embankment wall. Or another possibility for the arm is IF (hate to use the word but oh well) J.T Chappell's yard was used for cutting timber or supplying timber to the site, the arm may have been transferred that way.

The Backchurch Lane deposit is a tough one no matter how we look at it. It was different than the other three, yet thought to be connected. I really don't have a good explanation for it so I won't even try. I do keep in the back of my mind the fact the property was owned and used by the Board of Works. That could have some sort of connection with a builder.

[jerryd]

And he lived within easy walking distance of the putative dump-sites in the Thames.

Thanks Gareth,

Yes, and so did Richard Lawrence. In fact, Richard Lawrence lived closer to Battersea Park than did Wildbore. Lawrence is the man that placed Wildbore's tools in the vault on Saturday night and took them out again on Monday morning.

If this was a partner type thing, then I think these two fit the bill perfectly. And, as Gary Barnett found, both men had fathers that committed suicide. Wildbore's when he was very young.

[jerryd]

I think the general consensus is that the torso killer had access to transport. And once you have, just about all of London becomes accessible in a short time. From any chosen point of departure, you can reach the Wandle, Whitehall, Tottenham Court Road, Whitehall, St Pancras Lock, Battersea Gardens and Pinchin Street in no time at all. Which, going by the evidence, is precisely what the Torso killer did.

Though I think you have made some good points about the 1873 torso Christer, I'm not sure we can absolutely count that in the series. I don't say that because it limits suspects due to age, I say it because Dr. Bond attended the 1873 torso proceedings and yet didn't include it with the four from 1887-1889. Same with Tottenham in 1884 and the 1874 torso for that matter.

Other than the deposits to the north in Regents Canal and the Pinchin torso, the rest of the Thames deposits could have been done from one spot. The Albert Bridge, for example, as Debs has indicated in the past. Even the Battersea Park deposit could have been from that bridge. Less than a half mile from that bridge was the Shelley home if we talk about other land drops in the area.

[RockySullivan]

Not en route to work, en route home. That is if she was killed and dismembered in the vault. The arm would have possibly been dropped on his way home; thrown over the embankment wall. Or another possibility for the arm is IF (hate to use the word but oh well) J.T Chappell's yard was used for cutting timber or supplying timber to the site, the arm may have been transferred that way.

The Backchurch Lane deposit is a tough one no matter how we look at it. It was different than the other three, yet thought to be connected. I really don't have a good explanation for it so I won't even try. I do keep in the back of my mind the fact the property was owned and used by the Board of Works. That could have some sort of connection with a builder.

jerry how do you think he could get a victim to the vault?

[Fisherman]

Why travel ALL the way from the East End to dump body-parts predominantly - almost exclusively - more than 10 miles away in Southwest London? Pinchin Street aside, Tottenham Court Rd is the nearest to Whitechapel, but even that's a fair trek away from Ripper Central.

Why travel all the way from the West End home that you suggest down to Pinchin Street in the east?
No matter where we choose to think that we cn place the killer, we will always have to allow for him travelling significant distances on his dumping journeys.

Therefore, the idea that he lived in the west is a totally moot one, I´m afraid. He may have and he may not have.

[Fisherman]

A couple of the men left their tools right there in the vault daily. Carpenters use saws don't they? I think a saw would have been part of the tool kit for a carpenter.

Not the fine-toothed type of saw that is used to cut human bones, though, at least not during the type of construction work done in the vaults. A fine-toothed saw is much more about delicate wood details. My son´s a carpenter and a cabinet-maker, so I know roughly what is used.

[Fisherman]

jerryd: Though I think you have made some good points about the 1873 torso Christer, I'm not sure we can absolutely count that in the series. I don't say that because it limits suspects due to age, I say it because Dr. Bond attended the 1873 torso proceedings and yet didn't include it with the four from 1887-1889. Same with Tottenham in 1884 and the 1874 torso for that matter.

The 1873 torso was decisively the work of the same man who killed Mary Jane Kelly, Annie Chapman and Liz Jackson. I have no doubts about that, Jerry.

Other than the deposits to the north in Regents Canal and the Pinchin torso, the rest of the Thames deposits could have been done from one spot. The Albert Bridge, for example, as Debs has indicated in the past. Even the Battersea Park deposit could have been from that bridge. Less than a half mile from that bridge was the Shelley home if we talk about other land drops in the area.

It still means a lot of walking and dumping, does it not? Tottenham Court Road, for example, is also a fair stretch away.

[jerryd]

Not the fine-toothed type of saw that is used to cut human bones, though, at least not during the type of construction work done in the vaults. A fine-toothed saw is much more about delicate wood details. My son´s a carpenter and a cabinet-maker, so I know roughly what is used.

A carpenter/joiner would use a mitre saw or back saw, keyhole saw, hack saw and various other types of fine-tooth saws.

[Fisherman]

Not en route to work, en route home. That is if she was killed and dismembered in the vault. The arm would have possibly been dropped on his way home; thrown over the embankment wall. Or another possibility for the arm is IF (hate to use the word but oh well) J.T Chappell's yard was used for cutting timber or supplying timber to the site, the arm may have been transferred that way.

The Backchurch Lane deposit is a tough one no matter how we look at it. It was different than the other three, yet thought to be connected. I really don't have a good explanation for it so I won't even try. I do keep in the back of my mind the fact the property was owned and used by the Board of Works. That could have some sort of connection with a builder.

But why would he take an arm along as he went home? If he was fine with using the vault as a dumping site for the torso and leg, then why not the rest? And did he thrown the other leg in the Thames too?
It adds up rather poorly to my mind.
Then again, I have no idea why Lechmere would add a leg to the torso.
It´s all very confusing, and there is something we are missing, I amcertain of that.

As for Pinchin Street, Lechmere is the only suspect with an obvious link to it. And just how likely is it that a man who just happened to be found with a Ripper victim would also get a torso victim dumped in the street where he grew up? What are the odds?
Add to this that Lechmere has logical ties to all of the other sites, and I think we need not extend our search any more.

[Fisherman]

A carpenter/joiner would use a mitre saw or back saw, keyhole saw, hack saw and various other types of fine-tooth saws.

Carpenters use fine-tooth saws, yes - but would they need them down in the vault and thereabouts? I doubt it, but I can´t exclude that there was such a saw about.

[jerryd]

Carpenters use fine-tooth saws, yes - but would they need them down in the vault and thereabouts? I doubt it, but I can´t exclude that there was such a saw about.

Whether they needed them for work down there or not is beside the point; that's where they stored their tools for safe keeping. If a saw was part of their tool kit, it would have been kept with their hammers and everything else at the end of the day so it didn't get stolen. That's why Wildbore stored his tools in what was said to be the most secret place on the site. He felt that particular vault was safer than the locker that was built for storing the workers tools three weeks prior.

[Fisherman]

Whether they needed them for work down there or not is beside the point; that's where they stored their tools for safe keeping. If a saw was part of their tool kit, it would have been kept with their hammers and everything else at the end of the day so it didn't get stolen. That's why Wildbore stored his tools in what was said to be the most secret place on the site. He felt that particular vault was safer than the locker that was built for storing the workers tools three weeks prior.

You may well be correct, Jerry. It would make sense if they stored all tools in the same place, of course. I guess I was thinking about how I do work myself, always bringing what I need and nothing more.

About Wildbores thoughts about how safe and secluded the vault was - if he was the killer, then why not move the torso to a vault that did not have "Frederick Wildbore is just about the only man ever to come here" written all over it? Any ideas?