Same motive = same killer

[RockySullivan]

Hull daily mail 3 oct 88: (above post shld be 88 also) about whitehall: "there are indications that the hoarding surrounding the works has recently been scaled"

[RockySullivan]

London evening standard 10/3 pieces of black material from skirt have been collected from other parts of the premises

[jerryd]

Hull daily mail 3 oct 88: (above post shld be 88 also) about whitehall: "there are indications that the hoarding surrounding the works has recently been scaled"

Hi Rocky,

There are other reports that say there was no indication of climbing the hoarding. Not sure how they would really know either way unless part of it broke away or clothing remains were caught on parts of the wood when they/he climbed over.

The part that really interests right now is how the police missed the leg in their initial search. Immediately after the discovery of the torso they began searching the debris piles for more remains and found nothing.

Echo
London, U.K.
3 October 1888

Upon inquiring of the workmen employed on the buildings an Echo reporter was this morning informed that in the course of the morning the police would make a thorough search of the enclosed ground. Their object is to ascertain whether any other portions of the mutilated body have been hidden away, either beneath the heaps of débris lying about on all sides, or in the long corridor-like vaults beneath the buildings. This must occupy some considerable time, but it is hinted that there is a possibility that some other portion of the body will be discovered.

THE SEARCH IN THE DEBRIS.

The police investigation in the débris has produced no result. At least, it had not up to one o'clock. At that hour their labours ceased for awhile. They were, however, resumed in a short time.

and two weeks later:

Daily Telegraph
October 18, 1888

Some time was spent amongst a lot of timber, where it was suggested the head could easily have been slipped between the logs, ultimately falling to the ground, and here the dog hesitated, sniffed, and scratched for awhile, but nothing connected with the remains was discovered, the timber not having been removed. At the suggestion of Mr. W. H. Angle, the dog was taken to the spot where the remains of the deceased woman was discovered, and by the aid of a candle-light the blood-stained bricks at the base of the wall where the remains was laid were clearly visible. In the opposite corner (less than a couple of yards off) the little terrier sniffed and retired, but, urged to 'find it,' the dog again went to a heap of earth, and began to scratch it away. Mr. Angle commenced to remove some of the earth with his foot, when Hedge, a labourer, brought a spade, and upon digging away some four or five inches of earth, after the removal of stones and portions of brick from the surface, a red fleshy substance was observed. At this moment the constable on duty at the works gave orders for the digging operation to be stopped until the arrival of his superior officers. Mr. Brown, the assistant-foreman, speedily summoned them to the scene. Sergeants Rose and Ferris arrived, and the former completed the task of unearthing the portion of a limb, which was ultimately found to be the left foot and part of the leg as far as the knee. Dr. Bond, of the Broad Sanctuary, Westminster, was soon in attendance, with Inspector Peters and a staff of constables, who took possession of the premises, not allowing any one to leave or to enter during the investigation.

The leg was only a few yards from where the body was discovered a few weeks prior and was buried in the dirt that was piled up and then covered with stones and brick (debris). Wouldn't it make sense for the police to begin their search in the pile of dirt closest to where the body was found? As dark as it was in the vault, and as difficult as it was to get to that particular vault, why did the killer go to all this trouble rather than either throw the leg into the Thames or bury/drop it somewhere else? Why not bury the arm in the same pile of dirt?

[RockySullivan]

jerry I believe the reason is disposing of the parts in different areas make it harder to put all the pieces together, harder to identify, confuse the authorities essentialy. The arm found at lambeth road, did this end up belonging to the whitehall torso?

[jerryd]

jerry I believe the reason is disposing of the parts in different areas make it harder to put all the pieces together, harder to identify, confuse the authorities essentialy. The arm found at lambeth road, did this end up belonging to the whitehall torso?

I guess that could be. The other leg, the thighs and head were never found.

It was decided the Lambeth arm was not part of the Whitehall victim.

[RockySullivan]

I guess that could be. The other leg, the thighs and head were never found.

It was decided the Lambeth arm was not part of the Whitehall victim.

I'm not sure I agree with them. They claim the Lambeth arm was buried somewhere then dug up. The flesh was decomposed one account states but the arm was wrapped up in canvas and bound with string or sash chord. The timing and the signature matching exactly there is no way it's not the torso killer. I think arm being buried at one point has to do with the leg and this is the whitehall arm. The doctor also said it was severed in the same way

[jerryd]

I'm not sure I agree with them. They claim the Lambeth arm was buried somewhere then dug up. The flesh was decomposed one account states but the arm was wrapped up in canvas and bound with string or sash chord. The timing and the signature matching exactly there is no way it's not the torso killer. I think arm being buried at one point has to do with the leg and this is the whitehall arm. The doctor also said it was severed in the same way

It has something going for it, as it was the opposite arm as the one found in the Thames. The police claimed it was down to the bone but a witness claims he saw the clenched fingers, hand and wrist plain as day. It appeared to have been covered in Lime, which, if it were Quick Lime it would enhance the decay process.

The other thing going for it is it was thrown over a railing similar to Liz Jackson's thigh.

[jerryd]

The big thing against it, though, is it had attached to it the shoulder blade. The Whitehall torso apparently had both arms severed at the shoulder joint.

[RockySullivan]

The big thing against it, though is it had attached to it the shoulder blade. The Whitehall torso apparently had both arms severed at the shoulder joint.

Hm that is weird. what is the deal with workman saying "george" found it?

[RockySullivan]

jer do u have dundee courier oct 3 with all the "from central news agency stuff"?

[jerryd]

Hm that is weird. what is the deal with workman saying "george" found it?

That would be George Bugden. He was the man that actually dragged it into the light by the direction of the foreman. The press must have stated he found it for this reason.

[jerryd]

jer do u have dundee courier oct 3 with all the "from central news agency stuff"?

No, I'm sorry i don't.

[RockySullivan]

Ok I'll get it to you it says that according the central news agency's "informant" he walked inti the vault was overwhelmed by the smell and ran out of the vault gasping for air screaming and alerted the foreman. it was in wrapped in course cloth (canvas?) and tightly bound in cord. i thought id seen you poost this before.

[jerryd]

Ok I'll get it to you it says that according the central news agency's "informant" he walked inti the vault was overwhelmed by the smell and ran out of the vault gasping for air screaming and alerted the foreman. it was in wrapped in course cloth (canvas?) and tightly bound in cord. i thought id seen you poost this before.

Interesting.

Wildbore is the one who informed Mr. Brown (assistant foreman) about the parcel in the morning. Then Brown, after telling foreman Cheney later that day, directed Bugden to drag it out. In Wildbore's testimony below his mate is Richard Lawrence according to another paper.

Wildbore's testimony (partial):

Witness - No, sir; it was perfectly open, though the place was dark. My labourers had previously removed my tools. I went again about half past five the same day with my tools. Next morning I went again and noticed the same thing. I drew my mate's attention to it. I struck a wax vesta and looked at the object. That was the first time I had noticed it particularly. We looked closely at it, but did not form any idea of what it was, and both went away.
The Coroner - Did you report it?
Witness - Not then. I informed Mr. Brown, assistant foreman, about one o'clock, when he came down to where I was at work. We both went and looked at it, and found it a curious parcel. I left it to his decision.
The Coroner - Was it opened in your presence?
Witness - No, sir, not in my presence. I had not been at the spot for eight days before the previous Saturday, and then there was nothing to see. About three quarters of an hour after I left Mr. Brown with the parcel I heard that a body had been found in it. The parcel remained in the same position from the Monday to the time I drew Mr. Brown's attention to it, and Mr. Brown saw it as I first saw it. There was nothing in the vault but the parcel and the debris from a drain which had been opened near there. This vault had been used to place tools in for some weeks will within the last three weeks, when we had a lock up, and even after that I placed my tools there, as I considered them safer than in the lock up. I had not noticed any similar parcel before, and I saw no one taking one about the works. A plan of the works was here handed to the witness, and explained by him.

Brown's Testimony (partial):

Who called your attention to the parcel on Tuesday? - Wildbore. He asked me could I spare a moment or two to see a parcel. I went to the place. He struck a light. I thought I saw an old coat in the corner with what I fancied was a piece of ham in it. I took no more notice for some time. Then I got a lamp and had another look. I went up and told Mr. Cheney, foreman bricklayer, and asked one of the labourers to go and fetch a curious parcel out of the corner in the vault. I went down again, and Budgen had just got the parcel out. I was not aware of any smell.

[RockySullivan]

Strange how different the stories are. I guess we should go by the inquest?