Same motive = same killer

[Fisherman]

jerryd: That's if I place Wildbore as the killer of all five canonicals and all four torsos. I believe the possibility exists they were the same man. I have fought in the past that it was not only possible but probable.

I just had supper and I was thinking while I chewed on my chicken that the main reason that I am not fond of the Wildbore idea is that I am totally convinced that the same killer is responsible for both series.
If I had looked uon the series as independent of one another, I think I would have been a lot more enthusiastic about Wildbore.
But I canīt do that. The series DO have the same originator, and therefore Wildbore has to step aside.

I have never included the 1873 torso, although it could be linked. Then when this Wildbore stuff struck me, things changed a little bit. That maybe he was depositing torsos for someone else or he was the torso killer. I haven't gotten far enough with him to link to any Ripper killings, if there even is a link.

The 1873 torso belongs to the torso series and the killer of that woman also killed Mary Jane Kelly, Annie Chapman and Liz Jackson - why not just take it from me...?
As I keep hinting at (wink, wink) there is something that ties these victims together beyond all reasonable doubt.

I do know he was off on Saturday (for what reason is unknown) when his cohorts were working that day. The site was closed on Sunday. And then two women were ripped up in Whitechapel the early hours of Saturday night/ Sunday morning. On Monday Wildbore sees the torso twice and says nothing. Tuesday morning at 6 a.m he sees it again and points it out to Richard Lawrence, neither say anything. No one is still notified until Mr. Brown comes down to see Wildbore at 1:00 that afternoon and he then draws attention to the parcel. Meanwhile, that same Monday Oct 1st, the Central News is receiving letters and postcards that they are told to hold back until the proof is shown. In fact, the Saucy Jack postcard, received and postmarked on October 1st, was the same Monday Wildbore knew of the parcel but withheld telling anyone until the following day. Then you have journalists imposing themselves into the search, bringing in their own dogs (without the permission of the police mind you) and happen to find a leg buried in the same vault the torso was found. And let's not forget Claude Mellor finding the thigh in the Shelley Garden. He was also a journalist.

Once my head stops spinning, Iīll come back to you on that, Jerry...

There are a lot of weird things happening in London that weekend in my opinion.

Without a doubt!

[Fisherman]

Christer,

The staining on the wall is another mystery to me. It could have been from the body but it may have been from something else. Pure speculation here, but maybe another body part or even the torso rested there at a previous date and was subsequently moved around. Maybe it wasn't from the body. The foundations had been in place since around 1875. They were prone to water from springs from the Thames. Black Mold comes to mind. I know, I'm crazy. Just trying to offer suggestions.

I think we are all way past crazy out here sometimes, so I know the feeling.

[Sam Flynn]

The 1873 torso belongs to the torso series and the killer of that woman also killed Mary Jane Kelly, Annie Chapman and Liz Jackson... As I keep hinting at (wink, wink) there is something that ties these victims together beyond all reasonable doubt.

Three flaps, by any chance? Or two, in Jackson's case.

[Fisherman]

Three flaps, by any chance? Or two, in Jackson's case.

There were no flaps in the 1873 case, as far as I know.

[RockySullivan]

That's if I place Wildbore as the killer of all five canonicals and all four torsos. I believe the possibility exists they were the same man. I have fought in the past that it was not only possible but probable.

I have never included the 1873 torso, although it could be linked. Then when this Wildbore stuff struck me, things changed a little bit. That maybe he was depositing torsos for someone else or he was the torso killer. I haven't gotten far enough with him to link to any Ripper killings, if there even is a link.

I do know he was off on Saturday (for what reason is unknown) when his cohorts were working that day. The site was closed on Sunday. And then two women were ripped up in Whitechapel the early hours of Saturday night/ Sunday morning. On Monday Wildbore sees the torso twice and says nothing. Tuesday morning at 6 a.m he sees it again and points it out to Richard Lawrence, neither say anything. No one is still notified until Mr. Brown comes down to see Wildbore at 1:00 that afternoon and he then draws attention to the parcel. Meanwhile, that same Monday Oct 1st, the Central News is receiving letters and postcards that they are told to hold back until the proof is shown. In fact, the Saucy Jack postcard, received and postmarked on October 1st, was the same Monday Wildbore knew of the parcel but withheld telling anyone until the following day. Then you have journalists imposing themselves into the search, bringing in their own dogs (without the permission of the police mind you) and happen to find a leg buried in the same vault the torso was found. And let's not forget Claude Mellor finding the thigh in the Shelley Garden. He was also a journalist.

There are a lot of weird things happening in London that weekend in my opinion.

very good post jerry. this does a really good job of explaining why it's the logical conclusion the murders are related. everything going on that weekend, something is surely up and not a coincidence!

The staining on the wall is another mystery to me. It could have been from the body but it may have been from something else. Pure speculation here, but maybe another body part or even the torso rested there at a previous date and was subsequently moved around. Maybe it wasn't from the body. The foundations had been in place since around 1875. They were prone to water from springs from the Thames. Black Mold comes to mind. I know, I'm crazy. Just trying to offer suggestions.

I disagree with you here though. sounds like the black **** was from the torso. if you took a 10 day old torso and put it against the wall, how black would the wall be after a few days? so it needn't be in the vault the whole time, but someone posted on here 10-20 days is when body turns black. I imagine if it actually had condy's fluid it could be even older but i'm not sure. personally I think the murder is from around the time of the bloody newspaper found with the body from the 14th

[RockySullivan]

Tuesday morning at 6 a.m he sees it again and points it out to Richard Lawrence, neither say anything.

but jerry, as you've pointed out how could Lawrence not notice or say anything about the smell either? now who was the journalist who suggested condy's fluid again?

[Sam Flynn]

There were no flaps in the 1873 case, as far as I know.

Sorry, Fish, I missed the reference to 1873. My mistake.

[Fisherman]

Sorry, Fish, I missed the reference to 1873. My mistake.

No probs, Gareth. An easy enough mistake to make.

[jerryd]

I disagree with you here though. sounds like the black **** was from the torso. if you took a 10 day old torso and put it against the wall, how black would the wall be after a few days? so it needn't be in the vault the whole time, but someone posted on here 10-20 days is when body turns black. I imagine if it actually had condy's fluid it could be even older but i'm not sure. personally I think the murder is from around the time of the bloody newspaper found with the body from the 14th

Fair enough on the black staining but as far as TOD. I disagree.

First off, it was actually a newspaper dated the 24th of August. If you are saying that is the TOD, then how do you explain the condition of the arm found at Pimlico on September 11th? Dr. Neville felt death probably occurred about September 8th or 9thish. If what you are saying is the case, we would have to add another 2 1/2 weeks of decay to that arm, which would have made it look more decomposed than it was, would it not?

In other words, the arm was either floating in the water or stored somewhere else from August 24th until it showed up at the timer deal on September 11th. If it were floating in the water that long, I would think it would have made it much further down river.

[RockySullivan]

Fair enough on the black staining but as far as TOD. I disagree.

First off, it was actually a newspaper dated the 24th of August. If you are saying that is the TOD, then how do you explain the condition of the arm found at Pimlico on September 11th? Dr. Neville felt death probably occurred about September 8th or 9thish. If what you are saying is the case, we would have to add another 2 1/2 weeks of decay to that arm, which would have made it look more decomposed than it was, would it not?

In other words, the arm was either floating in the water or stored somewhere else from August 24th until it showed up at the timer deal on September 11th. If it were floating in the water that long, I would think it would have made it much further down river.

jerry I did mean the 24th but you are totally right. September 8 til October 2 would totally be the right time, I agree

[Fisherman]

Okay, Jerry, now I have processed this:

I do know he was off on Saturday (for what reason is unknown) when his cohorts were working that day. The site was closed on Sunday. And then two women were ripped up in Whitechapel the early hours of Saturday night/ Sunday morning. On Monday Wildbore sees the torso twice and says nothing. Tuesday morning at 6 a.m he sees it again and points it out to Richard Lawrence, neither say anything. No one is still notified until Mr. Brown comes down to see Wildbore at 1:00 that afternoon and he then draws attention to the parcel. Meanwhile, that same Monday Oct 1st, the Central News is receiving letters and postcards that they are told to hold back until the proof is shown. In fact, the Saucy Jack postcard, received and postmarked on October 1st, was the same Monday Wildbore knew of the parcel but withheld telling anyone until the following day. Then you have journalists imposing themselves into the search, bringing in their own dogs (without the permission of the police mind you) and happen to find a leg buried in the same vault the torso was found. And let's not forget Claude Mellor finding the thigh in the Shelley Garden. He was also a journalist.

and this ...

I forgot to mention the John Arnold story which also relates to journalists. It is interesting the way Arnold says the ex-policeman, or whatever he decided the man was, finally addressed him and said, "Hurry up with your papers, another horrible murder ... in Backchurch Lane." Sounds like the headline for the next days news report, doesn't it? It so happens, John Moore, of the Central News Agency was an ex-policeman. He was Tom Bulling's boss. Fleet Street would have been his stomping ground and that's exactly where John Arnold met this mysterious informant.

...but I cannot say that I am certain where you are going with it? You seem to be proposing that there was a journalist connection in one way or another. What I am thinking is that it seems that somebody may have been terribly interested in getting the attention of the papers.
Could it be that the killer made it his business to tip off the press? As you know, I think that there is a very clear possibility that the killer was somebody who wanted as much coverage as possible for what he did. To that end, placing the torso in the vaults of Scotland Yard would work eminently, and floating the body parts through central London, many of them being washed up more or less directly outside the institutes of power would do that purpose no harm either. Likewise, killing in the open streets was something that secured this killer huge press coverage.
If the combined Torsoripper killer wanted to get acknowledged, we can in retrospect see that we are still following that lead, many thousands of us, 129 years on.

So was that weekend all about making the world listen, by peaking the interest of the press, tipping them off and more or less directing them to the murders? Was it not a coincidence, for example, that Mellor found the leg on the Shelley premises? Had he been tipped off, demanding his silence on the point in exchange, perhaps hinting at future scoops?

Can you see any relevance in this kind of a suggestion - or is it what you are thinking already yourself?

[Abby Normal]

Okay, Jerry, now I have processed this:

I do know he was off on Saturday (for what reason is unknown) when his cohorts were working that day. The site was closed on Sunday. And then two women were ripped up in Whitechapel the early hours of Saturday night/ Sunday morning. On Monday Wildbore sees the torso twice and says nothing. Tuesday morning at 6 a.m he sees it again and points it out to Richard Lawrence, neither say anything. No one is still notified until Mr. Brown comes down to see Wildbore at 1:00 that afternoon and he then draws attention to the parcel. Meanwhile, that same Monday Oct 1st, the Central News is receiving letters and postcards that they are told to hold back until the proof is shown. In fact, the Saucy Jack postcard, received and postmarked on October 1st, was the same Monday Wildbore knew of the parcel but withheld telling anyone until the following day. Then you have journalists imposing themselves into the search, bringing in their own dogs (without the permission of the police mind you) and happen to find a leg buried in the same vault the torso was found. And let's not forget Claude Mellor finding the thigh in the Shelley Garden. He was also a journalist.

and this ...

I forgot to mention the John Arnold story which also relates to journalists. It is interesting the way Arnold says the ex-policeman, or whatever he decided the man was, finally addressed him and said, "Hurry up with your papers, another horrible murder ... in Backchurch Lane." Sounds like the headline for the next days news report, doesn't it? It so happens, John Moore, of the Central News Agency was an ex-policeman. He was Tom Bulling's boss. Fleet Street would have been his stomping ground and that's exactly where John Arnold met this mysterious informant.

...but I cannot say that I am certain where you are going with it? You seem to be proposing that there was a journalist connection in one way or another. What I am thinking is that it seems that somebody may have been terribly interested in getting the attention of the papers.
Could it be that the killer made it his business to tip off the press? As you know, I think that there is a very clear possibility that the killer was somebody who wanted as much coverage as possible for what he did. To that end, placing the torso in the vaults of Scotland Yard would work eminently, and floating the body parts through central London, many of them being washed up more or less directly outside the institutes of power would do that purpose no harm either. Likewise, killing in the open streets was something that secured this killer huge press coverage.
If the combined Torsoripper killer wanted to get acknowledged, we can in retrospect see that we are still following that lead, many thousands of us, 129 years on.

So was that weekend all about making the world listen, by peaking the interest of the press, tipping them off and more or less directing them to the murders? Was it not a coincidence, for example, that Mellor found the leg on the Shelley premises? Had he been tipped off, demanding his silence on the point in exchange, perhaps hinting at future scoops?

Can you see any relevance in this kind of a suggestion - or is it what you are thinking already yourself?

hey fish
yes I think if anything is going on the killer is tipping off the press.

what I have a question about is if it was the torsokiller-when is the torso deposited in the vault-whats the latest it could have been dumped there? whats the most likely scenario of how long the torso was there before it was discovered?

I guess I'm having difficulty imagining the torsoripper doing the double event sat/sun and then dumping the torso Monday?

[Harry D]

Just to confirm, we have three instances of torsos being falsely reported in locations where they later appeared. Is this correct?

[RockySullivan]

i think it's just pinchin and the new reports from Whitehall unless I'm missing something

[Michael W Richards]

I just had supper and I was thinking while I chewed on my chicken that the main reason that I am not fond of the Wildbore idea is that I am totally convinced that the same killer is responsible for both series.
If I had looked uon the series as independent of one another, I think I would have been a lot more enthusiastic about Wildbore.
But I canīt do that. The series DO have the same originator, and therefore Wildbore has to step aside.

I am always amazed how you are willing to set aside a more obvious choice, that Wildbore does present an interesting suspect for just the Torso murders and really has no connective thread to any of the "Ripper" murders, for a position insists that one man did both series.