Same motive = same killer

[RockySullivan]

If he was fine with using the vault as a dumping site for the torso and leg, then why not the rest?

I already explained it's because the killer was separating parts in an effort to prevent identification. this is basically the whole point of his operation but you seem to miss it. and please don't bother telling me if I want to talk to you I have to call you by the name you want. i'm free to respond to you and you're free not to respond

[Fisherman]

I already explained it's because the killer was separating parts in an effort to prevent identification. this is basically the whole point of his operation but you seem to miss it. and please don't bother telling me if I want to talk to you I have to call you by the name you want. i'm free to respond to you and you're free not to respond

But of course I will tell you that if you want to talk to me, you should not call me names. That is something that you are NOT free to do, not by any standards. The administrators of the boards do not allow it, and if they pick up on it, they will suspend you.
Not that I am going to tell them, I will instead keep telling you that if you want a debate, you need to grow up and start acting accordingly.
I will do that every time, Rocky, since we owe it to ourselves to try and better those of our fellow posters who are acting like kindergarten kids.

[jerryd]

I don't think Lechmere can be discounted, mind you. We don't know a whole lot about Wildbore, Richard Lawrence or any of the various other workmen at the site at this point. For all we know, Wildbore does have some sort of connection to the East End that has yet to be discovered. Lechmere has been studied for years so the "big picture" of him is easier to speculate upon. But, I will say, I don't see Lechmere navigating to a most secreted spot in the basement of the new police offices to deposit the torso. The men had 21,000 square feet of space, a storage locker, etc. to choose to put their tools. For a dead body to end up where they kept their tools, in a place known to only a few, is extremely suspicious to me.

Here is a good theory of the time in The People Oct. 7, 1888. And other newspapers reported on the same type of theory. They, as I, thought it had to be someone familiar with the site. If Lechmere was familiar with the site, then he is at the top of my list.

THE DISCOVERY ON THE EMBANKMENT.
A New Theory.

With regard to the horrible discovery of mutilated remains made in Cannon row, the first idea was that the murderer had climbed an 8ft hoarding in Cannon row, by reason of its loneliness, darkness, and unprotectedness, dragging after him the parcel containing the body, that in the dark he made his way to the darkest and most secret part of the unwatched works, and then picked out, in the darkness, the place which would always be dark. This, however, is now thought to be impossible. It is also considered impossible for any one to have brought the load in at working time through any of the gates where the workers enter and leave, all these, it must be remarked, being in Cannon row. Equally unlikely was it for any one to have climbed the hoarding in daylight on Saturday afternoon or Sunday when it would only have been possible to have walked across the works, for though there are few people about on these days, there are always some, as Cannon row has a public house at each end of its short length, and there are always people about in the daytime. On examination of the other sides of the site it was considered equally improbable that the murderer found his way either from the gardens at the rear of Buccleuch House or from the west side. Moreover, the hoarding next the Thames Embankment is very high, and the drop from it would be through a cobweb of scaffolding into unknown depths. There is, therefore, only left the road by which the loaded carts enter, and curiously enough this is the nearest way to the recess where the body was found.

Supposed to have been Brought in a Cart.

Brought in a cart, and carried as a load across the planks on to the building, its disposal would be easy in the recess, even though workmen were about, for the multitude of these are unobservant of such things as particular parcels being carried, especially if it were wrapped or covered in a cement bag. The murderer, too, could have chosen the dinner hour at which the cart should arrive, if, as is surmised, it was so brought. Upon another point there is no doubt whatever, and that is that the deposit was made by someone intimately acquainted with all the intricacies of the underground part of the works. This fact narrows the examination, and the authorities are not hopeless of touching upon some evidence which will reveal the whole of the fearful crime. An important question has arisen as to the time when the body was placed on the site. It is doubted whether the men who so positively declare that it was not there on Friday are not in some way mistaken - if they had not spoken of one recess without looking into this most remote one.

[Sam Flynn]

But, I will say, I don't see Lechmere navigating to a most secreted spot in the basement of the new police offices to deposit the torso.

I don't see him travelling to the other side of London to drop body parts in basically the same stretch of the Thames, either. Whoever dunnit almost certainly lived in that part of town, probably in reasonable proximity to the river itself.

[jerryd]

You may well be correct, Jerry. It would make sense if they stored all tools in the same place, of course. I guess I was thinking about how I do work myself, always bringing what I need and nothing more.

About Wildbores thoughts about how safe and secluded the vault was - if he was the killer, then why not move the torso to a vault that did not have "Frederick Wildbore is just about the only man ever to come here" written all over it? Any ideas?

He may have been in the process of trying to do just that. Whoever committed this crime had buried the leg in that same vault. To decide to bury the torso would not be out of the question. I can't help but think about the story of Smoker, the dog that sniffed out the leg. Smoker had found another location in the basement that appeared to have freshly dug earth, IIRC, as if something had been buried there before. I believe it even had an odor to the journalist. Was the torso intended to be buried there but couldn't be dug deep enough to cover it? It was then taken to a spot known to be frequented only by a handful (if that) of men for temporary keeping until it could be discarded properly?

[Fisherman]

I don't think Lechmere can be discounted, mind you. We don't know a whole lot about Wildbore, Richard Lawrence or any of the various other workmen at the site at this point. For all we know, Wildbore does have some sort of connection to the East End that has yet to be discovered. Lechmere has been studied for years so the "big picture" of him is easier to speculate upon. But, I will say, I don't see Lechmere navigating to a most secreted spot in the basement of the new police offices to deposit the torso. The men had 21,000 square feet of space, a storage locker, etc. to choose to put their tools. For a dead body to end up where they kept their tools, in a place known to only a few, is extremely suspicious to me.

Here is a good theory of the time in The People Oct. 7, 1888. And other newspapers reported on the same type of theory. They, as I, thought it had to be someone familiar with the site. If Lechmere was familiar with the site, then he is at the top of my list.

THE DISCOVERY ON THE EMBANKMENT.
A New Theory.

With regard to the horrible discovery of mutilated remains made in Cannon row, the first idea was that the murderer had climbed an 8ft hoarding in Cannon row, by reason of its loneliness, darkness, and unprotectedness, dragging after him the parcel containing the body, that in the dark he made his way to the darkest and most secret part of the unwatched works, and then picked out, in the darkness, the place which would always be dark. This, however, is now thought to be impossible. It is also considered impossible for any one to have brought the load in at working time through any of the gates where the workers enter and leave, all these, it must be remarked, being in Cannon row. Equally unlikely was it for any one to have climbed the hoarding in daylight on Saturday afternoon or Sunday when it would only have been possible to have walked across the works, for though there are few people about on these days, there are always some, as Cannon row has a public house at each end of its short length, and there are always people about in the daytime. On examination of the other sides of the site it was considered equally improbable that the murderer found his way either from the gardens at the rear of Buccleuch House or from the west side. Moreover, the hoarding next the Thames Embankment is very high, and the drop from it would be through a cobweb of scaffolding into unknown depths. There is, therefore, only left the road by which the loaded carts enter, and curiously enough this is the nearest way to the recess where the body was found.

Supposed to have been Brought in a Cart.

Brought in a cart, and carried as a load across the planks on to the building, its disposal would be easy in the recess, even though workmen were about, for the multitude of these are unobservant of such things as particular parcels being carried, especially if it were wrapped or covered in a cement bag. The murderer, too, could have chosen the dinner hour at which the cart should arrive, if, as is surmised, it was so brought. Upon another point there is no doubt whatever, and that is that the deposit was made by someone intimately acquainted with all the intricacies of the underground part of the works. This fact narrows the examination, and the authorities are not hopeless of touching upon some evidence which will reveal the whole of the fearful crime. An important question has arisen as to the time when the body was placed on the site. It is doubted whether the men who so positively declare that it was not there on Friday are not in some way mistaken - if they had not spoken of one recess without looking into this most remote one.

The vault is spoken of as the most remote one. In what respect? Furthest away from any entrance?
The carts spoken of, entering the building with material, where they wheelbarrows or what? Do you know?

I have no problems seeing how it is tempting to place oneīs bet on somebody working in the vaults. But I am less inclined to think that it would be somehow impossible to find oneīs way down there even if you did not work there.

If it had been am impossible task, they the police would have known that, and they would have been certain that the killer was one of the workers. There seems to have been no such certainty at all.

I can only reiterate what I have said throughout - I have no real doubt that the torso killer and the Ripper were one and the same. I have very little doubt that Lechmere was the killer. And so there will be an explanation, but what it looks like, I canīt say. It is probably a very simple explanation, as it normally turns out.

What you need to do is to take Wildbore - who looks quite viable for the Whitehall murder on the surface of things - out of the construction site and explain what he was doing in Whitechapel, killing on foot at 3 or 4 AM in the mornings. Why did he end up in Berner Street and Mitre Square? And was he old enough to be the 1873 torso killer? I seem to remember he was, but I am not sure. Can you help out?

[Fisherman]

I don't see him travelling to the other side of London to drop body parts in basically the same stretch of the Thames, either. Whoever dunnit almost certainly lived in that part of town, probably in reasonable proximity to the river itself.

"Almost certainly". Yeah, right.

[RockySullivan]

Whoever committed this crime had buried the leg in that same vault.

jer sounds like you are convinced the foot was buried on purpose?

[Fisherman]

jerryd: He may have been in the process of trying to do just that. Whoever committed this crime had buried the leg in that same vault.

Was there not speculation that the leg was accidentally buried? And is that a viable suggestion?

To decide to bury the torso would not be out of the question.

But why did he not do so IMMEDIATELY? Why put it on display, more or less, for a long enough time for it to have the effects of the rotting seep into the wall behind it?

I can't help but think about the story of Smoker, the dog that sniffed out the leg. Smoker had found another location in the basement that appeared to have freshly dug earth, IIRC, as if something had been buried there before. I believe it even had an odor to the journalist. Was the torso intended to be buried there but couldn't be dug deep enough to cover it? It was then taken to a spot known to be frequented only by a handful (if that) of men for temporary keeping until it could be discarded properly?

I dunno, Jerry. It does not ring logical to me. Least of all that Wildbore himself would point it out, instead of discarding it in another vault. You make as good a case for it as can be made, but it does not sit well with me. There are too many illogical points. But I will merrily concede that it seems illogical for Lechmere to have been able to find the vault.

Something is missing.

[RockySullivan]

THE DISCOVERY ON THE EMBANKMENT.
A New Theory.

With regard to the horrible discovery of mutilated remains made in Cannon row, the first idea was that the murderer had climbed an 8ft hoarding in Cannon row, by reason of its loneliness, darkness, and unprotectedness, dragging after him the parcel containing the body, that in the dark he made his way to the darkest and most secret part of the unwatched works, and then picked out, in the darkness, the place which would always be dark. This, however, is now thought to be impossible. It is also considered impossible for any one to have brought the load in at working time through any of the gates where the workers enter and leave, all these, it must be remarked, being in Cannon row. Equally unlikely was it for any one to have climbed the hoarding in daylight on Saturday afternoon or Sunday when it would only have been possible to have walked across the works, for though there are few people about on these days, there are always some, as Cannon row has a public house at each end of its short length, and there are always people about in the daytime. On examination of the other sides of the site it was considered equally improbable that the murderer found his way either from the gardens at the rear of Buccleuch House or from the west side. Moreover, the hoarding next the Thames Embankment is very high, and the drop from it would be through a cobweb of scaffolding into unknown depths. There is, therefore, only left the road by which the loaded carts enter, and curiously enough this is the nearest way to the recess where the body was found.

Supposed to have been Brought in a Cart.

Brought in a cart, and carried as a load across the planks on to the building, its disposal would be easy in the recess, even though workmen were about, for the multitude of these are unobservant of such things as particular parcels being carried, especially if it were wrapped or covered in a cement bag. The murderer, too, could have chosen the dinner hour at which the cart should arrive, if, as is surmised, it was so brought. Upon another point there is no doubt whatever, and that is that the deposit was made by someone intimately acquainted with all the intricacies of the underground part of the works. This fact narrows the examination, and the authorities are not hopeless of touching upon some evidence which will reveal the whole of the fearful crime. An important question has arisen as to the time when the body was placed on the site. It is doubted whether the men who so positively declare that it was not there on Friday are not in some way mistaken - if they had not spoken of one recess without looking into this most remote one.

jerry great post. cart is the strongest possibility.

Coroner]Did you see any one with a bundle? - No, Sir. I did not see a costermonger's cart about. I saw a barrow in Spildts-street. It had a board on it, and had been there the whole time I was on duty. I saw no other cart or vehicle about, with the exception of those coming out of Christian-street, which belonged to Messrs. Fairclough.

was this barrow what was used to dump the pinchin torso? so what does the cart entrance being used in Whitehall tell us about the killer?

[jerryd]

The vault is spoken of as the most remote one. In what respect? Furthest away from any entrance?
The carts spoken of, entering the building with material, where they wheelbarrows or what? Do you know?

They probably would have been carts carrying lumber, sand, building supplies etc.

I have no problems seeing how it is tempting to place oneīs bet on somebody working in the vaults. But I am less inclined to think that it would be somehow impossible to find oneīs way down there even if you did not work there.

Wildbore states he had to strike a match everytime he went in there. Visitors were not allowed on the site so to become familiar with the labyrinth to get to that vault would be a near impossible task on a one time trip.

If it had been am impossible task, they the police would have known that, and they would have been certain that the killer was one of the workers. There seems to have been no such certainty at all.

Some news reports do allude to suspicion of the police onto the workman due to these facts.

I can only reiterate what I have said throughout - I have no real doubt that the torso killer and the Ripper were one and the same. I have very little doubt that Lechmere was the killer. And so there will be an explanation, but what it looks like, I canīt say. It is probably a very simple explanation, as it normally turns out.

Maybe so. I don't see it, yet.

What you need to do is to take Wildbore - who looks quite viable for the Whitehall murder on the surface of things - out of the construction site and explain what he was doing in Whitechapel, killing on foot at 3 or 4 AM in the mornings. Why did he end up in Berner Street and Mitre Square? And was he old enough to be the 1873 torso killer? I seem to remember he was, but I am not sure. Can you help out?

That's if I place Wildbore as the killer of all five canonicals and all four torsos. I believe the possibility exists they were the same man. I have fought in the past that it was not only possible but probable.

I have never included the 1873 torso, although it could be linked. Then when this Wildbore stuff struck me, things changed a little bit. That maybe he was depositing torsos for someone else or he was the torso killer. I haven't gotten far enough with him to link to any Ripper killings, if there even is a link.

I do know he was off on Saturday (for what reason is unknown) when his cohorts were working that day. The site was closed on Sunday. And then two women were ripped up in Whitechapel the early hours of Saturday night/ Sunday morning. On Monday Wildbore sees the torso twice and says nothing. Tuesday morning at 6 a.m he sees it again and points it out to Richard Lawrence, neither say anything. No one is still notified until Mr. Brown comes down to see Wildbore at 1:00 that afternoon and he then draws attention to the parcel. Meanwhile, that same Monday Oct 1st, the Central News is receiving letters and postcards that they are told to hold back until the proof is shown. In fact, the Saucy Jack postcard, received and postmarked on October 1st, was the same Monday Wildbore knew of the parcel but withheld telling anyone until the following day. Then you have journalists imposing themselves into the search, bringing in their own dogs (without the permission of the police mind you) and happen to find a leg buried in the same vault the torso was found. And let's not forget Claude Mellor finding the thigh in the Shelley Garden. He was also a journalist.

There are a lot of weird things happening in London that weekend in my opinion.

[jerryd]

jerry great post. cart is the strongest possibility.

was this barrow what was used to dump the pinchin torso? so what does the cart entrance being used in Whitehall tell us about the killer?

Thanks Rocky,

There were two gates on Cannon Row. The larger gate (which I assume was the gate used for carts, etc.) would have been the Derby Gate entrance in my opinion. The smaller gate, IIRC, was 20 yards up from this one. It would have been the gate the workmen used to enter and exit the site and had the string. None of the locks had been tampered with according to the detectives. No sign of climbing the hoarding was found by detectives.

Personally, I think the torso appeared in that vault on Monday night. Earnest Edge says he looked for the hammer to lock the tool locker and close the site down at 20 minutes to five. The hammer was located in that same vault and Edge said the body was NOT there at that time. In fact at the inquest he says "I'm sure of it" when asked if the body were not there. Curiously, Wildbore states at the inquest he was in the vault at 5:30 on Monday night and saw the parcel for the second time. Was he there after Edge closed it down?

[jerryd]

Was there not speculation that the leg was accidentally buried? And is that a viable suggestion?

Yes, and I hope Debs can chime in on this point because I am a little unclear on this. They say the leg was found about 5" below the surface. Was that the surface of the ground or the pile of dirt? Second, to dig the drainage ditch there would have to be light. From all accounts without a lamp or match it was very hard to see anything. If a light was illuminating the spot while the ditch was dug, wouldn't they have noticed a leg laying there? Plus, the leg would smell as well, wouldn't it? I'm wondering if the dirt covered the spot the leg was buried, which was 5" below the surface of the ground.

Anyways, I'm not certain on this one to be honest.

[jerryd]

But why did he not do so IMMEDIATELY? Why put it on display, more or less, for a long enough time for it to have the effects of the rotting seep into the wall behind it?

Christer,

The staining on the wall is another mystery to me. It could have been from the body but it may have been from something else. Pure speculation here, but maybe another body part or even the torso rested there at a previous date and was subsequently moved around. Maybe it wasn't from the body. The foundations had been in place since around 1875. They were prone to water from springs from the Thames. Black Mold comes to mind. I know, I'm crazy. Just trying to offer suggestions.

[jerryd]

I forgot to mention the John Arnold story which also relates to journalists. It is interesting the way Arnold says the ex-policeman, or whatever he decided the man was, finally addressed him and said, "Hurry up with your papers, another horrible murder ... in Backchurch Lane." Sounds like the headline for the next days news report, doesn't it? It so happens, John Moore, of the Central News Agency was an ex-policeman. He was Tom Bulling's boss. Fleet Street would have been his stomping ground and that's exactly where John Arnold met this mysterious informant.