Same motive = same killer

[Fisherman]

My point was that the body was in a 15x20 foot area and no one smelled it?

Christer, I am having trouble with the whole scenario whether I suspect Wildbore may be involved or not.

There are several problems here. The leg was buried and the torso was not. Maybe the torso was intended to be buried in the near future? There was no smell and all of a sudden that weekend the torso is mysteriously discovered after supposedly having lay there for a month. What drew the attention of it THAT weekend and not the days prior to the discovery? And then the day after double event in Whitechapel, the parcel is first noticed in the vault by Wildbore.

Makes me wonder if somebody was being watched or thought they were being watched due to the discovery in the vault, it could explain laying low for the whole month of October.

Yes, the whole thing is gloriously odd! As I said before, why take a leg along if you are going to put a torso in the vault? And if you DO insist on bringing a leg along, then why not insist on the rest too? Maybe there are still parts buried under the building, parts that were never found in 1888? If the killer was able to make the smell go away from the rotting torso, then maybe he did the same for the other leg, the missing arm and the head, and dug them down?
Then again, Joshua has a VERY fair point when wondering why Bond and Hebbert never mentioned any disinfectant, if such a thing was applied!
Are we to think that the killer ran up and down the ladders, bringing the torso in and out, allowing for ventilation inbetween turns...?

If, as you say, the idea was to bury the torso, same as the leg, then that would of course point straight to somebody who had access to the premises.
Then again, if the killer had a shovel and the time and inclination to bury the leg, then why did he not have the time to bury the torso too...?

I canīt help but to feel that there is something going on here that we are missing. Perhaps on account of how the underlying explanation is so screwball that it only made sense to the killer.

[Abby Normal]

Rooting for Lechmere, Iīd propose:

-The 1873 and -74 victims, Rainham and Liz Jackson: getting back at a society that had shunned him for being the descendant of a squanderer.

-The Whitehall torso: Taunting the police and possibly getting the better of a force to which his stepfather - who may have been a disciplinarian - had belonged.

-The Pinchin Street torso: Sending a message to his mother, who never gave him the opportunity to grow up with his real father, and who he may have regarded as a loose woman for marrying three times.

All unsubstantiable, of course - but you DID ask!

Interesting Fish, very interesting

[Fisherman]

I recently read up on Dahmer again ...

I do that all the time, sensing that there is a bond between the Rippertorso killer and him.

However, there is one thing that always gives me a pause.

Dahmer was a very private person, and he was never one to brag about what he did. It seems he created his own little world, where he allowed nobody entrance but himself and his victims. He became a role model in prison, behaving quite well and courteously.

Ed Gein is much the same. He seems to have done what he did as a private matter, and he too became a model prisoner.

Ed Kemper - same thing again, although he did dig down a head in his motherīs place, but he seems never to have bragged about what he did, and he even turned himself in, something I would not have been surprised if Dahmer had done too. And Kemper is also a man who behaves very well in jail.

The Rippertorso killer seems to be more of a communicator, and more of a braggard. And to me, that is unexpected in a way. I donīt know how to explain it, and I am not sure that there are parallel examples.

[Abby Normal]

I do that all the time, sensing that there is a bond between the Rippertorso killer and him.

However, there is one thing that always gives me a pause.

Dahmer was a very private person, and he was never one to brag about what he did. It seems he created his own little world, where he allowed nobody entrance but himself and his victims. He became a role model in prison, behaving quite well and courteously.

Ed Gein is much the same. He seems to have done what he did as a private matter, and he too became a model prisoner.

Ed Kemper - same thing again, although he did dig down a head in his motherīs place, but he seems never to have bragged about what he did, and he even turned himself in, something I would not have been surprised if Dahmer had done too. And Kemper is also a man who behaves very well in jail.

The Rippertorso killer seems to be more of a communicator, and more of a braggard. And to me, that is unexpected in a way. I donīt know how to explain it, and I am not sure that there are parallel examples.

No that's a good point and right on the money. Post mortem mutilators don't tend to be overly communicative-letter writers and that sort of thing. They seem to want to maintain there own little worlds more privately.

Now that being said, they do seem to get brazen and "cocky".

Dahmer had no qualms about his victims seeing his other victims, was quite bold when almost caught by police, brazenly engaging with and rusing the police with the kid who got away-even using them to help get him back in his apartment, even letting them see his apartment,and with another another victim did the same thing which led to his capture.

Ed gein apparently had no worries about letting the kids see his "artwork".

Kemper would often talk to the police about the case, indeed, seeking them out.

And I know someone who knew Bundy and said (before anyone knew he was a killer) that he was the cockiest person she had ever met.

And all where very bold and brazen in the way they obtained there victims.

oh and fish, its "Torsoripper".

[Abby Normal]

Hi Gut
I actually think there were several motivating factors for torsoman. Its complicated.

I recently read up on Dahmer again and he seemed to have several motivations that were all tied up together and tied into his sexual desire. From an early age he was fascinated with dead animals and there insides, with a particular focus on innards and the bones. He would catch and kill them and cut them up.Shortly after puberty he also realized he was homosexual and started fantasizing about having sex with dead or immobilized male partners. Tied into this he was extremely lonely and wanted these partners to never leave him.

All these factors then went into his fantasy that evolved into his MO, motivation/sig when he started to act on his fantasies.

Jerry brudos was also a post mortem mutilator who had a foot fetish. he was apparently very attracted to womens shoes as a child and as he got older it became a sexual attraction to their feet which again became his motivation when he started killing them. he would cut off there feet, breasts and other parts of there bodies, dumpt the bodies but keep the parts for a while.

Kemper had a thing for the heads. he also wanted "human" dolls (similar to Dahmer). also with kemper some of the victims dump sites had special meaning to him, in particular he buried one of them outside his mothers window. All had something to do with intense hate/love of there mothers.

I could go on with with many other post mortem mutilating serial killers but I just focused on these, because they seemed to have a special focus on cutting bodies up post mortem and specifically an interest in "parts" and also because they were good at rusing the victims to get them where they wanted them.

I see a lot of similarities with these guys and the torso man.

I think he had a fascination with the body parts of women, external and internal, and enjoyed cutting them up as part of his fantasy (not just MO to get rid of). I think the parts he kept had special meaning to him and he was sexually aroused by the act of cutting up and "playing" with the body parts-
Masturbation and having sex with the dead bodies and parts. I would venture that he engaged in cannibalism. I also think he had a secondary motivation in how the bodies/parts were placed when he was done-again special meaning.

I don't think there was an overtly insane reason, ala chase or mullins in the post mortem mutlilations, because he used probably an elaborate ruse method to ensnare his victims, and was sane enough to not get caught.

so basically his motivation, for complex reasons, was he simply got off on doing it, like most serial killers.


and everything I wrote about Torsoman I think also applies to the ripper, just with different circumstances-perhaps his torso murder house was unavailable or hes upping the thrill factor by killing in the streets (perhaps he saw these as "quick fixes"), and leads me more to the idea of the torsoripper--its the same man.

I would also add that like torso man and the ripper none of the above seemed to be into any kind of torture.

[Fisherman]

No that's a good point and right on the money. Post mortem mutilators don't tend to be overly communicative-letter writers and that sort of thing. They seem to want to maintain there own little worlds more privately.

Now that being said, they do seem to get brazen and "cocky".

Dahmer had no qualms about his victims seeing his other victims, was quite bold when almost caught by police, brazenly engaging with and rusing the police with the kid who got away-even using them to help get him back in his apartment, even letting them see his apartment,and with another another victim did the same thing which led to his capture.

Ed gein apparently had no worries about letting the kids see his "artwork".

Kemper would often talk to the police about the case, indeed, seeking them out.

And I know someone who knew Bundy and said (before anyone knew he was a killer) that he was the cockiest person she had ever met.

And all where very bold and brazen in the way they obtained there victims.

oh and fish, its "Torsoripper".

Ah yes - thatīs the sequence, of course. Right, "Torsoripper" it is!

[Fisherman]

I would also add that like torso man and the ripper none of the above seemed to be into any kind of torture.

True. It all seems to be about aquiring bodies and using them for ritualistically tainted procedures.

[Abby Normal]

Ah yes - thatīs the sequence, of course. Right, "Torsoripper" it is!

I think its the best name for him. The torso murders came first, it just sounds better, and both were actually torso rippers.

[Abby Normal]

True. It all seems to be about aquiring bodies and using them for ritualistically tainted procedures.

Bingo!

[Abby Normal]

Rooting for Lechmere, Iīd propose:

-The 1873 and -74 victims, Rainham and Liz Jackson: getting back at a society that had shunned him for being the descendant of a squanderer.

-The Whitehall torso: Taunting the police and possibly getting the better of a force to which his stepfather - who may have been a disciplinarian - had belonged.

-The Pinchin Street torso: Sending a message to his mother, who never gave him the opportunity to grow up with his real father, and who he may have regarded as a loose woman for marrying three times.

All unsubstantiable, of course - but you DID ask!

re his mother: I also find it extremely interesting that she was involved in the cats meat business, which obviously included the cutting up of bodies. I wonder, if Lech is the man, this is where he gained this experience?

do we know when and where this business was?

[Sam Flynn]

I think its the best name for him. The torso murders came first, it just sounds better, and both were actually torso rippers.

Torso-scratcher might be more appropriate for the Pinchin St killer.

[Abby Normal]

Torso-scratcher might be more appropriate for the Pinchin St killer.

ah yes, because we all know a 15 inch gash is just a scratch.

really Sam, give it up.

[Fisherman]

re his mother: I also find it extremely interesting that she was involved in the cats meat business, which obviously included the cutting up of bodies. I wonder, if Lech is the man, this is where he gained this experience?

do we know when and where this business was?

On the other thread, Gary Barnett (whoever else...?) has uncovered an article that showed that Pickfords carried horsejoints (sounds like something a horse would smoke illegaly) on their carts through London in the early eighties.

Thatīs where we ge the first potential connection between the carman and that trade.

Next up is 1891, when Ma Lechmere is listed as a horseflesh dealer (catīs meat) in a trade directory, implicating that she may have been involved with larger pieces and joints of horses. She was at the stage living in 147 Cable Street, but I donīt know from where she managed the business.

Then we know that the Lechmere family got deeply involved in the business in the ensuing years, resulting in how Lechmereīs kids started to sell catīs meat from a stand in Broadway market, having taken over that stand from their father. What he sold from there, I do not know.

Thatīs what we know by now.

[Fisherman]

ah yes, because we all know a 15 inch gash is just a scratch.

really Sam, give it up.

Itīs a bit like Monty Python and the black knight by now, is it not?

"Iīll have your arm - there!"

"Ah, itīs just a scratch!"

[Fisherman]

Torso-scratcher might be more appropriate for the Pinchin St killer.

Have you digested the fact that Hebbert deemed the Pinchin Street torso the most skilfully dismembered body yet? The last time we heard from you, you suggested that it was the other way around.
And no, I donīt mean that the torso suggested that Hebbert was skilfully dismembered.