Same motive = same killer

[Debra A]

Debs,

I forgot to address something you mentioned earlier; the size of the portion of vault where the body was found.

This is from the Hull Daily Mail, Oct 3, 1888.

"I went down into one of the cellars, which is about 20 feet by 15 feet in size, to look round, when I saw a parcel lying in a corner, as though it had been thrown down carelessly. I might say the cellar is really part of the half finished basement of what are to be the new police offices."

To me this sounds like the actual vault in which the body was found was 20x15 or thereabouts. Also, when I was reviewing Wainwright's case in response to Abby, I noticed something that is kind of relevant here. A witness in that case, Charles Titiens, stated in June of 1875 when visiting the premises Wainwright owned at 215 Whitechapel Road, he noticed a stench in the back of the premises. He continued to smell it for about a month. June would have been about 9 months after Harriet was buried in the floorboards. He went there on occasion to pack goods. He told Wainwright that some ashes piled up in that area might be causing the stench and to have them removed. Wainwright did not remove them so Titiens bought some Chloride of Lime and sprinkled it over the ashes himself. He says after the second application of the COL he did not notice the smell.

This brings me to two things. First, it's interesting the body had a noticeable odor nine months after being buried in the floor boards. With the Whitehall torso we are talking a much shorter time in the decaying process so I would think the odor from that corpse would have been even greater. Second, if the Whitehall corpse was in fact laying in the vault since late August or early September and nobody could smell it, maybe Condy's Fluid was being applied to the corpse periodically to keep the smell away. If that's the case, who had opportunity to be going into the vault to periodically apply Condy's Fluid?

Thanks, Jerry.
That would have to point to an employee in that case?

[jerryd]

Then why put it there in the first place...?

Christer,

In the Coroner's summation at the inquest regarding the torso at Whitehall, he had this to say:

"Probably the main objective of the person who put the body in the vault was to get rid of it, and not to permanently conceal it, which he must have known to be extremely difficult"

[Sam Flynn]

[Jackson] had her abdomen cut from pubes to ribs.

Is there a source that explicitly states that Jackson was "cut from pubes to ribs"?

Genuine question.

[kjab3112]

Hebbert certainly implies that is the case (if not more). He certainly notes the sternum is cut through in the midline and then the two flaps/slips

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks, Jerry.
That would have to point to an employee in that case?

Or someone sneaking in at night. Seems a bit unlikely though.

[Joshua Rogan]

if the Whitehall corpse was in fact laying in the vault since late August or early September and nobody could smell it, maybe Condy's Fluid was being applied to the corpse periodically to keep the smell away. If that's the case, who had opportunity to be going into the vault to periodically apply Condy's Fluid?

The thing I don't get is...wouldn't Bond or Hebbert have mentioned something about the body being coated in antiseptic, if this had been the case?

[jerryd]

As for the smell given of by old corpses, I do believe that graves from hundreds of years ago have been found by dogs trained to smell for bodily decay.
Not that we have the same sense of smell, but anyway!

My point was that the body was in a 15x20 foot area and no one smelled it?

Christer, I am having trouble with the whole scenario whether I suspect Wildbore may be involved or not.

There are several problems here. The leg was buried and the torso was not. Maybe the torso was intended to be buried in the near future? There was no smell and all of a sudden that weekend the torso is mysteriously discovered after supposedly having lay there for a month. What drew the attention of it THAT weekend and not the days prior to the discovery? And then the day after double event in Whitechapel, the parcel is first noticed in the vault by Wildbore.

Makes me wonder if somebody was being watched or thought they were being watched due to the discovery in the vault, it could explain laying low for the whole month of October.

[jerryd]

The thing I don't get is...wouldn't Bond or Hebbert have mentioned something about the body being coated in antiseptic, if this had been the case?

Hi Joshua,

I would think so, but I am struggling with the no smell part, as you know. It sounds like Bond and Hebbert may have applied antiseptic at the discovery site so maybe didn't notice in their initial exam at the site? The article you posted seemed to indicate there was a smell. I just don't get that it wasn't noticed before this weekend. The carpenters were at work in that vault the week before. Men were in that vault prior to the discovery, just as they were on that weekend. What drew them to it all of a sudden? I think it had to be the smell, and if Wildbore was involved, he had to do something at that point so why not point out that there is a mysterious parcel in the corner. Then the disposal of the body is done and over with by the police and mortuary. And if he wanted it to be discovered, it worked. Nobody was discovering it before he pointed it out to them!

[jerryd]

Thanks, Jerry.
That would have to point to an employee in that case?

Somebody who had regular access to the vault, anyway Debs. The witnesses all say that the dark recess would require knowledge of the area to reach. If it were anyone other than an employee, and the police building was intended for shock value, why not just throw it over the hoarding and be done with it. Why take the time to traverse the planks and trenches, etc in the dark and risk injury?

[GUT]

Now, of course, if anyone could tell me the actual motive.......

[John Wheat]

Liz Jacksons head was taken away from her body, so we may be reasonably certain that her neck was cut, John. And if you want to deem the idea that she had her carotid arteries severed to kill her, then it is the medicos of the case you should approach and tell them that you are a much better judge of this than they were.
It may prove too tough a task for you, if I am not much mistaken.

What I listed stands. The fact that Jackson was subsequently dismembered does not alter my points. Ellen Bury is a very meager bid compared to Jackson, and I would say that around 99 per cent of the posters out here will recognize that.

And then thereīs you.

No the dismemberment and decapitation really does alter your case.

[Fisherman]

Christer,

In the Coroner's summation at the inquest regarding the torso at Whitehall, he had this to say:

"Probably the main objective of the person who put the body in the vault was to get rid of it, and not to permanently conceal it, which he must have known to be extremely difficult"

Yeah, sure, thatīs an understandable reflection - but less so if you work from the presumption that a labourer on the site was the killer. Such a man would not really "get rid of it" by putting it on display on his own job.

If anything, the coroner seems to be playing down how the placement was something that would guarantee paper coverage and a tremendeous hooh-haah...

[Abby Normal]

What special meaning to the killer could the locations he placed them have for him?

[Abby Normal]

Now, of course, if anyone could tell me the actual motive.......

Hi Gut
I actually think there were several motivating factors for torsoman. Its complicated.

I recently read up on Dahmer again and he seemed to have several motivations that were all tied up together and tied into his sexual desire. From an early age he was fascinated with dead animals and there insides, with a particular focus on innards and the bones. He would catch and kill them and cut them up.Shortly after puberty he also realized he was homosexual and started fantasizing about having sex with dead or immobilized male partners. Tied into this he was extremely lonely and wanted these partners to never leave him.

All these factors then went into his fantasy that evolved into his MO, motivation/sig when he started to act on his fantasies.

Jerry brudos was also a post mortem mutilator who had a foot fetish. he was apparently very attracted to womens shoes as a child and as he got older it became a sexual attraction to their feet which again became his motivation when he started killing them. he would cut off there feet, breasts and other parts of there bodies, dumpt the bodies but keep the parts for a while.

Kemper had a thing for the heads. he also wanted "human" dolls (similar to Dahmer). also with kemper some of the victims dump sites had special meaning to him, in particular he buried one of them outside his mothers window. All had something to do with intense hate/love of there mothers.

I could go on with with many other post mortem mutilating serial killers but I just focused on these, because they seemed to have a special focus on cutting bodies up post mortem and specifically an interest in "parts" and also because they were good at rusing the victims to get them where they wanted them.

I see a lot of similarities with these guys and the torso man.

I think he had a fascination with the body parts of women, external and internal, and enjoyed cutting them up as part of his fantasy (not just MO to get rid of). I think the parts he kept had special meaning to him and he was sexually aroused by the act of cutting up and "playing" with the body parts-
Masturbation and having sex with the dead bodies and parts. I would venture that he engaged in cannibalism. I also think he had a secondary motivation in how the bodies/parts were placed when he was done-again special meaning.

I don't think there was an overtly insane reason, ala chase or mullins in the post mortem mutlilations, because he used probably an elaborate ruse method to ensnare his victims, and was sane enough to not get caught.

so basically his motivation, for complex reasons, was he simply got off on doing it, like most serial killers.


and everything I wrote about Torsoman I think also applies to the ripper, just with different circumstances-perhaps his torso murder house was unavailable or hes upping the thrill factor by killing in the streets (perhaps he saw these as "quick fixes"), and leads me more to the idea of the torsoripper--its the same man.

[Fisherman]

What special meaning to the killer could the locations he placed them have for him?

Rooting for Lechmere, Iīd propose:

-The 1873 and -74 victims, Rainham and Liz Jackson: getting back at a society that had shunned him for being the descendant of a squanderer.

-The Whitehall torso: Taunting the police and possibly getting the better of a force to which his stepfather - who may have been a disciplinarian - had belonged.

-The Pinchin Street torso: Sending a message to his mother, who never gave him the opportunity to grow up with his real father, and who he may have regarded as a loose woman for marrying three times.

All unsubstantiable, of course - but you DID ask!