Same motive = same killer

[Debra A]

Debs,

Post #1381

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10520&page=139

The paper might have been wrong of course, Detective Rose said he went in with dogs before the 17th, which was when Jasper Waring went in.

Thanks, Jerry. That could be right then. I probably assumed it was after Smoker because it wasn't reported until the adjourned inquest commenced.
I still wonder why Smoker wouldn't have picked up more of a scent straight away if the already badly decaying torso had been brought through the vault. He needed to practically have his nose rubbed on the spot before he picked anything up by the sounds of it!

[jerryd]

Thanks, Jerry. was Richard Lawrence 'the mate' that Wildbore said he was with when he went to retrieve his tools from the vault on Monday?

Could be Debs. Wildbore says his laborer took them there on Saturday. Lawrence is described as a laborer and took tools to the vault on Saturday. Lawrence was also from Battersea, so maybe they knew each other thus the term mate?

Let's hope Richard Lawrence didn't have an estranged wife named Mary Jane, eh? Just joking of course.

[jerryd]

I just looked up a Richard Lawrence b. 1855 Waltham Berkshire, carpenter, that was living a block from Regents Canal near Camden Lock, Chalk Farm in 1881. In 1891 the same man is living in Stewarts Road, Clapham in 1891. I guess that could be him?

[jerryd]

By the way, Lawrence's address given at the inquest was Sterndale Road. I found out Sterndale Road later became Condell Road and sure enough Condell Road was right off Stewarts Road. He must be our man. Sterndale Road was about a half mile southeast of Battersea Park.

[Debra A]

By the way, Lawrence's address given at the inquest was Sterndale Road. I found out Sterndale Road later became Condell Road and sure enough Condell Road was right off Stewarts Road. He must be our man. Sterndale Road was about a half mile southeast of Battersea Park.

Good work, Jerry


Re the bloodhounds- I checked back over the papers about the bloodhound and it seems to have been generally reported around the 20th October that a bloodhound had been brought in on the night of Wednesday 17th October after Smoker had found the leg in the vault that same morning.

[harry]

It would surprise me if workmen left their tools for any part of the weekend, without knowing they would be under some sort of surveillance.That also applies to the building site in general.Where w as the watchman?I presume there would have been one.

[Joshua Rogan]

It would surprise me if workmen left their tools for any part of the weekend, without knowing they would be under some sort of surveillance.That also applies to the building site in general.Where w as the watchman?I presume there would have been one.

Not according to the assistant foreman;

"Nobody is kept at the gates, but there is a notice prohibiting strangers from entering. On Saturdays all the gates are locked except a small one in Cannon-row. No watchman remains at the gate, and no watchman remains on the building during the night. The little gate is latched, and there is a trick in opening the latch. From the time the workmen leave on Saturdays until they come again on Mondays the works are deserted."

[jerryd]

It would surprise me if workmen left their tools for any part of the weekend, without knowing they would be under some sort of surveillance.That also applies to the building site in general.Where w as the watchman?I presume there would have been one.

There wasn't a watchman for the premises, Harry. The men had some sort of locker to keep the tools safe. They used to keep them in the dark recess where the body was found until 3 weeks before the discovery. One witness stated there was only one theft that he knew of during construction. Wildbore continued to keep his tools in the dark recess after the locker was constructed.

Beat me to it Joshua, thanks.

[Joshua Rogan]

Although there was no watchman, there were normal police patrols covering the roads around the works. And it seems that after the torso was discovered, until at least when the leg was found, a PC was on duty there, although it's not clear if this was 24/7 or just during working hours. Probably the former;

"During the last fortnight a strict guard has been kept over the works by the police, and access to the premises could not have been attempted within that time without certainty of detection.'

[jerryd]

Good work, Jerry


Re the bloodhounds- I checked back over the papers about the bloodhound and it seems to have been generally reported around the 20th October that a bloodhound had been brought in on the night of Wednesday 17th October after Smoker had found the leg in the vault that same morning.

Thanks Debs,

I read that on Wednesday, October 3rd, the day the crane fell into the site, Detective Rose had a team of Detectives in the vault looking for other body parts. There is no mention of dogs. Then in his inquest testimony he mentions bloodhounds and terriers searching before the 17th, so I don't know what to think? Could they (detectives) have brought the bloodhounds in before and after?

[drstrange169]

>>So there goes that cane of yours, Dusty. You must learn to walk without it.<<

I'm very happy to lean on Hebbert's cane until something better comes along. Although, I do agree with any Victorian medico, some sceptism is healthy.
Lawson Tait is a prime example, leader in his field, idiot in some of his public explanations.

[Fisherman]

>>So there goes that cane of yours, Dusty. You must learn to walk without it.<<

I'm very happy to lean on Hebbert's cane until something better comes along. Although, I do agree with any Victorian medico, some sceptism is healthy.
Lawson Tait is a prime example, leader in his field, idiot in some of his public explanations.

Lean away, Dusty, lean away. I only wanted to provide some facts about why we cannot take Hebberts assertion as gospel - or anywhere near it.
Plus something better HAS come along, to my mind. But of course, as long as you rely on Hebbert, you won´t be able to agree.

[Debra A]

Could be Debs. Wildbore says his laborer took them there on Saturday. Lawrence is described as a laborer and took tools to the vault on Saturday. Lawrence was also from Battersea, so maybe they knew each other thus the term mate?

Let's hope Richard Lawrence didn't have an estranged wife named Mary Jane, eh? Just joking of course.

Jerry.
The term 'mate' was also used in place of labourer. A time served joiner would have a 'mate' who laboured for him so that also seems to fit Lawrence in that context.

[Debra A]

Thanks Debs,

I read that on Wednesday, October 3rd, the day the crane fell into the site, Detective Rose had a team of Detectives in the vault looking for other body parts. There is no mention of dogs. Then in his inquest testimony he mentions bloodhounds and terriers searching before the 17th, so I don't know what to think? Could they (detectives) have brought the bloodhounds in before and after?

Could be. That would mean three lots of dogs were in the vault and only Smoker got on the scent of anything. I assume the bloodhound afterwards was because Waring and Mephisto felt that Smoker was able to smell something else under the mound of earth but didn't unearth anything.

[Debra A]

There wasn't a watchman for the premises, Harry. The men had some sort of locker to keep the tools safe. They used to keep them in the dark recess where the body was found until 3 weeks before the discovery. One witness stated there was only one theft that he knew of during construction. Wildbore continued to keep his tools in the dark recess after the locker was constructed.

Beat me to it Joshua, thanks.

Was it Wildbore's tools that were kept in a basket on a plank?