Not for nothing

[John G]

One aspect of the case that I've never been comfortable with Abby is the idea that Jack would fight/argue in the street, in front of a witness, with his intended victim. I've always felt it more likely that if Stride was a victim of Jack she had an arguement with someone (possibly someone that she knew) who went away and Jack moved in. It's the same reason why I don't really suspect Astrakhan Man or Hutch. Obviously I could be wrong though (unlikely I know )

I agree. Although I also believe that Schwartz was a very dubious witness!

[Abby Normal]

The entire neighbourhood had a heavy Jewish appearance. That's the problem: we can't really read much significance into the Jewish element, given the concentration of immigrant Jews in the area.Nowhere is it stated that the apron was "directly" below the graffito, and the very fact that PC Long discovered the writing only whilst he was actively searching the entrance-way suggests very strongly that the apron and graffito weren't in direct proximity. Furthermore, Long says that the apron was in the "passageway" leading to the stairs, whereas Warren said that the writing was on the "jamb" or "open doorway" at the entrance to Wentworth Model Dwellings. There is every indication that, whilst the two artefacts certainly weren't a million miles away from one another, they weren't directly juxtaposed either.

Hi Sam

The entire neighbourhood had a heavy Jewish appearance. That's the problem: we can't really read much significance into the Jewish element, given the concentration of immigrant Jews in the area.

The whole neighborhood? really? was the whole neighborhood wearing a peaked cap also? really Sam. the jewish element is exactly why we should read into it. first of all the killers reaction to it, points to him being local, gentile Englishman. we need to read everything into it!

Nowhere is it stated that the apron was "directly" below the graffito, and the very fact that PC Long discovered the writing only whilst he was actively searching the entrance-way suggests very strongly that the apron and graffito weren't in direct proximity. Furthermore, Long says that the apron was in the "passageway" leading to the stairs, whereas Warren said that the writing was on the "jamb" or "open doorway" at the entrance to Wentworth Model Dwellings. There is every indication that, whilst the two artefacts certainly weren't a million miles away from one another, they weren't directly juxtaposed either.

[/QUOTE]

passageway and door jam as locations aren't anything that excludes the apron still being directly under the graffiti. and even if its slightly off-still close enough for me.

add to the fact that the apron is what drew Long to discovering the grafitti and that most of the police at the time thought they connected.

[Abby Normal]

If you're right Abby, and you definately could be, then for me it argues for the GSG being written by Jack as it makes the act of discarding the apron in Goulston Street a deliberate one. He didn't need to go back out because he would have had no need to get rid of the apron that night. And even if he did want rid off it that night why go back into the heart of events where there would have been increased police activity/awareness?

yes it was deliberate, and him going back out in the streets to do it was peanuts compared to what he was used to getting away with.

[Abby Normal]

One aspect of the case that I've never been comfortable with Abby is the idea that Jack would fight/argue in the street, in front of a witness, with his intended victim. I've always felt it more likely that if Stride was a victim of Jack she had an arguement with someone (possibly someone that she knew) who went away and Jack moved in. It's the same reason why I don't really suspect Astrakhan Man or Hutch. Obviously I could be wrong though (unlikely I know )

scwartz was following behind broad shoulders so the suspect didn't see him until he already started the attack. serial killers are humans, and complex ones at that, they have emotions, lose their temper etc.

BS man, marshalls man, lawendes suspect and the anaon church st sighting all describe the suspect as wearing a peaked cap.
the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

[Herlock Sholmes]

scwartz was following behind broad shoulders so the suspect didn't see him until he already started the attack. serial killers are humans, and complex ones at that, they have emotions, lose their temper etc.

BS man, marshalls man, lawendes suspect and the anaon church st sighting all describe the suspect as wearing a peaked cap.
the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

But once he knew that he'd been seen and could possibly have been identified wouldn't he have just 'aborted' and gone to find another victim?

[Sam Flynn]

The whole neighborhood [was of a Jewish appearance], really? was the whole neighborhood wearing a peaked cap also? really Sam. the jewish element is exactly why we should read into it.

Yes, but no more than we should read into an anti-semitic graffito on a wall in a Jewish quarter in 1930s Germany. It's just the sort of thing we might expect to see.

first of all the killers reaction to it, points to him being local, gentile Englishman

From what we know today, the idea that he was a local, gentile Englishman should come as no surprise. Killers tend to attack people within their own socio-demographic group. The real clue is the apron, and always has been; the graffito is superfluous.

[Harry D]

If there was any gap, chances are that it was a gap in PC Long's perception, rather in the timing of the apron-drop itself. By the way, if he missed the apron first time around, it's no criticism of Long; as I've said before, he was a police officer, not a litter-warden.

My thoughts exactly. An old, sodden piece of rag lying in a dark doorway. Easily missed first time around.

[Harry D]

The whole neighborhood? really? was the whole neighborhood wearing a peaked cap also? really Sam. the jewish element is exactly why we should read into it. first of all the killers reaction to it, points to him being local, gentile Englishman. we need to read everything into it!

The man has a point, Abby. This was a neighbourhood with a large Jewish locality. One of the murders occurred outside a Jewish socialist club, and antisemitic graffiti was found at a Jewish dwelling during a period of social unrest with the immigrant populace. The Jewish thread to the case is not necessarily related to the killer.

[Pierre]

Yes, but no more than we should read into an anti-semitic graffito on a wall in a Jewish quarter in 1930s Germany. It's just the sort of thing we might expect to see.
From what we know today, the idea that he was a local, gentile Englishman should come as no surprise. Killers tend to attack people within their own socio-demographic group. The real clue is the apron, and always has been; the graffito is superfluous.

The apron was connected to the writing. If the writing had not been misread, Kelly would not have been killed.

[MrBarnett]

The man has a point, Abby. This was a neighbourhood with a large Jewish locality. One of the murders occurred outside a Jewish socialist club, and antisemitic graffiti was found at a Jewish dwelling during a period of social unrest with the immigrant populace. The Jewish thread to the case is not necessarily related to the killer.

Not forgetting that the other murder that night took place in a square behind the Great Synagogue.

[John G]

The apron was connected to the writing. If the writing had not been misread, Kelly would not have been killed.

Is this a return to your undisclosed theory?

[Abby Normal]

But once he knew that he'd been seen and could possibly have been identified wouldn't he have just 'aborted' and gone to find another victim?

not if hed already cut her throat. and he did abort anyway-no mutilations.

[cnr]

Nowhere is it stated that the apron was "directly" below the graffito

C'mon Sam, it's all getting a bit semantic. There's no doubt that those police officials who commented, to posterity's benefit, believed the graffito to be authentic. And on the score that Long supposedly missed it, we have Halse backing him up. He didn't see it either at 2.20am.

We have a sequence of events that give the Ripper away:

1. By the time Schwartz spies the opening phase of the attack on Stride, she and her companion had passed by a radical Jewish club four times in the space of about an hour. They weren't just promenading - it seems a plan to leave a corpse on the premises was in the offing. A lecture entitled, 'Why Jews Should Be Socialists' had concluded not long before.

2. Ripper yells out a Cockney, anti-Semitic slur.

3. Eddowes killed behind Great Synagogue and seen with Ripper 'round the front of it, on cnr of Duke St. & Church Passage.

4. Graffito referencing the anti-Semitic riots post-Chapman left in building tenanted "almost exclusively by Jews".

5. ...and the most important consideration of all, that in killing Eddowes, JTR was frantically overcompensating for his failure to mutilate Stride. Mutilation being the whole point of the exercise, given he was tapping that old and ugly lie, the blood libel.

I could go on, but it's all in my book. Trust the weather in Wales this evening is kind to you, Sam.

Stephen http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-th...mitic-frameup/

[Sam Flynn]

C'mon Sam, it's all getting a bit semantic.

I'm actually being accurate, Stephen. There is no primary source which says that the graffito was immediately above the apron, and taking all the witness statements together suggests that there was a degree of separation between them, along both vertical and horizontal axes. Not a massive gulf, of course - the distance between open archway and the stairs was perhaps only 5 feet - but a separation nonetheless.

Trust the weather in Wales this evening is kind to you, Sam.

We actually got to see the sun today. The entire street was out celebrating.

[cnr]

I'm actually being accurate, Stephen. There is no primary source which says that the graffito was immediately above the apron, and taking all the witness statements together suggests that there was a degree of separation between them, along both vertical and horizontal axes. Not a massive gulf, of course - the distance between open archway and the stairs was perhaps only 5 feet - but a separation nonetheless.

Fair enough, ol' son, as they'd say in Whitechapel. (Trust my Cockney's up to scratch).

Anyway, the police officials who definitely believed it to be authentic included, Moore, Anderson, Smith, Warren. I think Arnold and Swanson might be added to the list. Ultimately, it fits into an anti-Semitic sequence of events writ-large over the course of that early morning.

Your description of the sun seen shining in Wales reminds me of the Monty Python scene where a shipload of Vikings are attacked by a dragon-like creature. Bewildered and confused they assume the strange beast to have been the sun.

My regards to Old Blighty please, Sam, and to you.

Stephen

http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-the-jack-the-ripper-murders-an-elaborate-anti-semitic-frameup/