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  • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
    The writer could have been a boy who didn't yet see himself becoming a man.
    or a chimpanzee who didn't yet see himself becoming a man
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
      Isn't that getting a bit anti-semantic?



      Halse admitted he might not have seen the apron piece even if it was there when he passed. Long possibly noticed it only after learning of the murder.



      Except that the man Schwartz saw wasn't accompanying Stride, but walking down Berner Street past the yard entrance where she was standing. Are you suggesting the killer spent the evening trying unsuccessfully to entice her into the yard (in the process allowing himself to be seen with the victim all that time) gave up and went home, only to come back later and happened to find her in the very place he'd had in mind all along?



      In neither account given by Schwartz did he think the shout was directed at him. This was entirely Abberline's suggestion.



      Church Passage? Mitre Square? Sounds at least as likely that he was having a go at Christian clergy.



      Referencing riots? It's not even certain it references Jews.



      How come the killer was only trying to libel the Jews on this one night? Did he try and incriminate other nationalities, ethnic or religious groups at other times? Was his spilling of Kelly's stomach contents into her abdominal cavity some obscure reference to the last supper, or the Irish fish-and-potato famine?
      Hi Joshua

      Isn't that getting a bit anti-semantic?
      Now that's funny.

      Except that the man Schwartz saw wasn't accompanying Stride, but walking down Berner Street past the yard entrance where she was standing. Are you suggesting the killer spent the evening trying unsuccessfully to entice her into the yard (in the process allowing himself to be seen with the victim all that time) gave up and went home, only to come back later and happened to find her in the very place he'd had in mind all along?
      In my mind he had left her only to shortly return(this is where Schwartz sees him) in anger and attack her.

      In neither account given by Schwartz did he think the shout was directed at him. This was entirely Abberline's suggestion.
      not quite right. he couldn't tell if it was directed at him or not.


      Church Passage? Mitre Square? Sounds at least as likely that he was having a go at Christian clergy.
      getting into crackpot territory here.


      Referencing riots? It's not even certain it references Jews.
      perhaps not the riots but certainly jews. or juwes. lets not be overly un-anti-semantic here ; )

      How come the killer was only trying to libel the Jews on this one night?
      Perhaps because he just thought of it? also George Hutchinson libeled a jew on the night of Mary Kelly's murder soooo maybe it was two nights.. you get the picture.

      Did he try and incriminate other nationalities, ethnic or religious groups at other times?
      because he didn't have a beef with them???

      Was his spilling of Kelly's stomach contents into her abdominal cavity some obscure reference to the last supper, or the Irish fish-and-potato famine?
      non-sequiter and not funny
      "Is all that we see or seem
      but a dream within a dream?"

      -Edgar Allan Poe


      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

      -Frederick G. Abberline

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
        Isn't that getting a bit anti-semantic?
        Hi Joshua,

        If I don't use enough commas, please don't hesitate to call me an anti-commanist.

        Aside from Long & Halse's more practical observations as mentioned, many of the police officials are on the record along the lines that the GSG was written by the murderer and was an important clue. For example;

        Moore: "undoubtedly by the murderer"

        Swanson: "the purport of the writing as shown at page 3 was to throw blame upon the Jews"

        Warren: "writing on the wall in Goulston Street evidently written with the intention of inflaming the public mind against the Jews". In a broader sense, Warren said that, "…the last murders were obviously done by some one desiring to bring discredit on the Jews and Socialists or Jewish Socialists".

        Smith believed the GSG was “probably” genuine and left as a ruse “to throw the police off the scent, to divert suspicion from the Gentiles and throw it upon the Jews".

        In my personal opinion, yes, JTR was determined to leave a mutilated corpse at the club. The coroner touched on a not entirely unrelated point in saying that, the murderer “must have spent much time and trouble to induce her to place herself in his diabolical clutches”. PC Smith told the inquest that Berner St was no haunt for prostitutes, which is also interesting.

        In regard Schwartz, there seems to be quite a bit of overlap about the physical description of the man seen with Stride, admittedly, at different times of the evening, but I find the convergence in describing someone of limited height and particular frame, interesting: 5ft 5in of “broad shoulders” and “rather stoutly built” (Schwartz), 5ft 5in (Gardner & Best), “about 5ft 6in” and “rather stout” (Marshall), “about 5ft 7in” and “stoutish” (Brown), “about 5ft 7in” (PC Smith).

        Thanks for your other points, which open up a broader discussion which might be beyond the scope of this thread by way of detailed response and which could drag on a bit. Might I suggest, if you are interested, reading my 'Dear Rip' letter in Ripperologist n.155 or the recent review of my book by London-based journo Robert Philpot. See links:

        http://www.mangodesign.biz/ripperologist155.pdf

        http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-th...mitic-frameup/

        Regards, Stephen.
        Last edited by cnr; 08-29-2017, 02:52 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by cnr View Post
          Hi Joshua,

          If I don't use enough commas, please don't hesitate to call me an anti-commanist.

          Aside from Long & Halse's more practical observations as mentioned, many of the police officials are on the record along the lines that the GSG was written by the murderer and was an important clue. For example;

          Moore: "undoubtedly by the murderer"

          Swanson: "the purport of the writing as shown at page 3 was to throw blame upon the Jews"

          Warren: "writing on the wall in Goulston Street evidently written with the intention of inflaming the public mind against the Jews". In a broader sense, Warren said that, "…the last murders were obviously done by some one desiring to bring discredit on the Jews and Socialists or Jewish Socialists".

          Smith believed the GSG was “probably” genuine and left as a ruse “to throw the police off the scent, to divert suspicion from the Gentiles and throw it upon the Jews".

          In my personal opinion, yes, JTR was determined to leave a mutilated corpse at the club. The coroner touched on a not entirely unrelated point in saying that, the murderer “must have spent much time and trouble to induce her to place herself in his diabolical clutches”. PC Smith told the inquest that Berner St was no haunt for prostitutes, which is also interesting.

          In regard Schwartz, there seems to be quite a bit of overlap about the physical description of the man seen with Stride, admittedly, at different times of the evening, but I find the convergence in describing someone of limited height and particular frame, interesting: 5ft 5in of “broad shoulders” and “rather stoutly built” (Schwartz), 5ft 5in (Gardner & Best), “about 5ft 6in” and “rather stout” (Marshall), “about 5ft 7in” and “stoutish” (Brown), “about 5ft 7in” (PC Smith).

          Thanks for your other points, which open up a broader discussion which might be beyond the scope of this thread by way of detailed response and which could drag on a bit. Might I suggest, if you are interested, reading my 'Dear Rip' letter in Ripperologist n.155 or the recent review of my book by London-based journo Robert Philpot. See links:

          http://www.mangodesign.biz/ripperologist155.pdf

          http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-th...mitic-frameup/

          Regards, Stephen.
          Hi Stephen
          Good post.
          ANd let's not forget that Schwartz, Marshall, lawende, smith and the anon church street sighting all describe a man with a peaked cap.
          And apparently this part of a description made an impression on Abberline, the most astute cop of the entire case, IMHO. See my SIG below.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            Hello CDMy first sentence was correct: the most "obvious" meaning of the GSG is anti-semitic; or, at least, that's certainly the immediate impression it gives, and it needs a fair bit of thinking to interpret it otherwise. My second sentence was, I'll grant you, an opinion. I'll tone it down to "Its author was probably not a Jew, and it's less probable that he was a gentile pretending to be one".
            Hello Sam,

            Explanation accepted.

            c.d.

            Comment


            • for me the simplest explanation is the best.

              Earlier that evening too many jews interrupted the crazy psychopath from carrying out his ritualistic mutilations - so he had to find someone else to kill.

              He almost interrupted by yet more Jews - Levy - "Look there, I don't like going home by myself when I see those characters about,"

              On his way home he does what many serial killers do, he blames other people.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Boggles View Post
                for me the simplest explanation is the best.

                Earlier that evening too many jews interrupted the crazy psychopath from carrying out his ritualistic mutilations - so he had to find someone else to kill.

                He almost interrupted by yet more Jews - Levy - "Look there, I don't like going home by myself when I see those characters about,"

                On his way home he does what many serial killers do, he blames other people.
                Bingo
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Boggles View Post
                  for me the simplest explanation is the best
                  The simplest explanation is that the (apparently) anti-semitic graffiti was already there before the Ripper jettisoned the apron.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • I'm sorry but I still don't get the whole Jewish thing. He was interrupted by people who happened to be Jewish but was there something specific related to Jews that caused them to interrupt him? He could have just as easily been interrupted by Gentiles. And if he was enraged at the Jews the GSG really doesn't seem to reflect that but comes across more as a mild rebuke. Hardly worth taking a chance to write.

                    c.d.

                    Comment


                    • The simplest explanation is that the (apparently) anti-semitic graffiti was already there before the Ripper jettisoned the apron
                      we wont know, but i find have to credit them that were there at the scene (busily scrubbing out the graffiti) with a little bit of trust when they saw connection

                      Comment


                      • And if he was enraged at the Jews the GSG really doesn't seem to reflect that but comes across more as a mild rebuke
                        A detective once told me criminals occasionally do odd things just after committing crimes and leaving the crime scenes. Often leaving clues. Possibly from exhilaration.

                        We will never know why he wrote this, (if he did), he may have been enraged. He may have been having a little joke as he took a piss.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          The simplest explanation is that the (apparently) anti-semitic graffiti was already there before the Ripper jettisoned the apron.
                          Hi Sam, trust the skies over Wales are still full of dragons and sunshine today.

                          In isolation, yours is a not unreasonable observation, but in the context of the evening's other events (and the series moreover), your very sensible interpretation is reduced to one more co-incidence in a series of co-incidences. And please keep in mind the issue of blame which is the active thematic of the missive: blame for the murders - and I believe, a reference to the anti-Semitic rioters with their chant of "no Englishman" post-Chapman, who had blamed the Jews.

                          As Reid it (probably) was, who so aptly put it, in 1889:

                          “He lives in Whitechapel, of that I am confident. His knowledge of the locality is astonishing". Indeed, JTR well knew his neighbourhood's raw nerves and exposed sinews - even if he had to dirty his hands to expose them himself, literally.

                          PS - the 'already there' interpretation, may also need to overturn Long & Halse .

                          Regards, Stephen.
                          Last edited by cnr; 08-29-2017, 05:14 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Boggles View Post
                            A detective once told me criminals occasionally do odd things just after committing crimes and leaving the crime scenes. Often leaving clues. Possibly from exhilaration.

                            We will never know why he wrote this, (if he did), he may have been enraged. He may have been having a little joke as he took a piss.
                            Well that's probably as good an explanation as any.

                            c.d.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              The simplest explanation is that the (apparently) anti-semitic graffiti was already there before the Ripper jettisoned the apron.
                              Absolutely

                              Mike
                              huh?

                              Comment


                              • I've mentioned this before but if the message was written by Jack (and no we can't know either way) could he have written it directly after leaving Berner Street? Maybe he stopped for a fag to try and calm down after being interrupted in his work? Maybe he got even more angry? Maybe he wrote the message in anger? Maybe later he felt angry that his 'message' might go unnoticed so he decided to leave the cloth as a 'signpost'? Maybe this explains the time gap? Depositing the cloth was an after thought?

                                Sorry about the 'maybe' overload there chaps
                                Regards

                                Herlock






                                "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

                                Comment

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