Not for nothing

[John Wheat]

Good.

Main reason I don't think it will happen, is I don't believe he genuinely has a suspect, not much else about him seems genuine. Look how often he's changed his area of so called expertise. Look at how often he has said "I know something no one else knows"?

Go back and read his first thread "I think I've found him" and all the promises that he only needed one more bit of "data" (as he called it when he was pretending to be a scientist) and then look at how little he has told s since.

Just BS everything he posts.

If he had any pride he'd have named his suspect by now or given an explanation as to why he hasn't. So over to you Pierre either name your suspect or give everyone an explanation as to why you haven't yet.

[Michael W Richards]

The Phrase "not for nothing", as David has pointed out many times, is not something found within any of the Ripper case studies here. Therefore its discussion must be relegated to Pub Talk rather than something Ripperological. Which this folder represents. I have no issue with obscure and meaningless posts as long as they don't interfere with the reason one joins a site like this.

Perhaps Pierre you might find something a site like Victorian Euphemisms to further your interest.

[harry]

Pierre,
My reference for the phrase are my parents and grandparents.All were Victorians. What is your reference?

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=David Orsam;417129]

In the expression "not for nothing", a true double negative is not to be found,

http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199290802.001.0001/acprof-9780199290802

p. 142

What do you mean by a "true" double negative, David?

Pierre

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just read through this thread. It reminds me of chasing a fly. No one knows where it will land. And there's a good chance that they won't be very pleased when they find out where it does land

Regards
Herlock

[Pierre]

Just read through this thread. It reminds me of chasing a fly. No one knows where it will land. And there's a good chance that they won't be very pleased when they find out where it does land

Regards
Herlock

That is a good way to put it.

It will soon be time to analyze the pattern of the chase.

Best wishes, Pierre

[Henry Flower]

That is a good way to put it.

It will soon be time to analyze the pattern of the chase.

Best wishes, Pierre

Don't call us, we'll call you.

[Elamarna]

Don't call us, we'll call you.

Surely that depends on if we are going to be told anything of interest, rather than a thread like this which seems to be without obvious purpose Henry?

Steve

[Henry Flower]

Surely that depends on if we are going to be told anything of interest, rather than a thread like this which seems to be without obvious purpose Henry?

Steve

Which of those options would your money be on, Steve?

[Michael W Richards]

Surely that depends on if we are going to be told anything of interest, rather than a thread like this which seems to be without obvious purpose Henry?

Steve

Its like a Radio series back in the 40's Steve, teasing little plot tidbits strung together over a few episodes. "Surely this new clue must mean that....."

Its an attempt at cliffhanger style broadcasting. Soon all will be revealed.

[Elamarna]

Its like a Radio series back in the 40's Steve, teasing little plot tidbits strung together over a few episodes. "Surely this new clue must mean that....."

Its an attempt at cliffhanger style broadcasting. Soon all will be revealed.

Maybe Michael, I however am one of probably a small number who believes Pierre does indeed have a suspect.
Why he has decided not to name is the only real question; and it is indeed annoying to have lots of threads going apparently nowhere.

This particular thread seemed to be going nowhere after say post 2.


Steve

[Henry Flower]

Steve, my hunch, for what it's worth, which is not much, is that Pierre did have a suspect. A couple of things added up and he thought he really had something. Since then, however, every substantive piece of reasoning or 'evidence' he has presented on the boards has been conclusively shown to be ill-founded or hideously misinterpreted nonsense.

I no longer believe Pierre currently has a suspect - at least, not one that the historian Pierre thinks was the Ripper. I think he realized he had nothing some time ago, and became a Ripperologist instead.

[Pierre]

Results: The understanding of Not for nothing

This thread is not about the GSG in itself but it is about the expression
"not for nothing".

In this thread anyone can publish versions of this expression, so that we may have a collection of different uses of it.

I therefore invite those who have some examples to publish them here.

The only requirement is that the examples contain the construction "not for nothing" and were written by authors born in Victorian times or earlier, but preferably Victorian times.

Firstly, the expression was constructed like this in the GSG (just a reminder, no discussion about the GSG now):

"...are not the men that will be blamed for nothing" or, if you prefer another version:

"...are the men that will not be blamed for nothing".

Now, some people believe that the expression was a "cockney double negative" used especially by the lower classes in Whitechapel.

Therefore, it would be very interesting to see some examples for that use with the construction "not for nothing" here. So please post if you have such.

But the expression "not for nothing" also has a long history in English literature, dating back to Shakespeare.

I give you some examples here:

Lancelot

An they have conspired together, I will not say you
shall see a masque; but if you do, then it was not
for nothing that my nose fell a-bleeding on
Black-Monday last at six o’clock i’ the morning,
falling out that year on Ash-Wednesday was four
year, in the afternoon.

Shakespeare, The Merchant Of Venice.

And we have it in literature from several authors born in Victorian times.

Here you can see it in the literature of Jack London:

Not for nothing had he been exposed to the pitiless struggles for life in the day of his cubhood, when his mother and he, alone and unaided, held their own and survived in the ferocious environment of the Wild.

Jack London, White Fang

It is also in Robert Louis Stevensonīs writings:

It is not for nothing that this “ignoble tobagie” as Michelet calls it, spreads all over the world.

Robert Louis Stevenson “Virginibus Puerisque and Other Papers”

The expression "Not for nothing" is also in the writings of C.S. Lewis:

It is not for nothing you are named Ransom.

C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

“Be sure it is not for nothing that the Landlord has knit our hearts so closely to time and place – to one friend rather than another and one shire more than all the land.”

C.S. Lewis, The Pilgrimīs Regress.

So please publish your example(s) if you have some. Thanks.

Best wishes, Pierre

Hi,

I asked you to publish examples of the idiom "Not for nothing".

Some did and there was also a discussion.

Here is the result of this discussion.

Posters thought about "Not for nothing" that it:

- Has nothing to do with the Ripper case

- Comes from literature

- Is not only cockney

- Is a bit similar to another expression which is cockney and a double
negative

- But still completely different

- Double negatives seem to date back to Old English usage.

- Is there any difference between using or speaking a double negative?

That depends on education and context

- Not for nothing is good for nothing

- "Not for nothing" is a claim or statement that something has been done or
said with good reason

- The term "not for nothing" is neither cockney or general London in usage or
history.

- Are they not just sort of everyday expressions though?

- They all simply mean that there is a price involved in a particular
circumstance,

- Hardly "Victorian"..

Conclusion: This is a simple idiom for which there is some research.

Still people here do not understand the provinience of it and they give contradictory statements about it.

Now, there was also another element in the discussion:

"The Juwes are nothing".
"The Juwes are not men"
"The Juwes are the men that will"
"The Juwes are the men that will not"
"The Juwes are blamed, not nothing"
"The men will be blamed"
"The men will be nothing"

"I will give you money,but,not for nothing".

"I will give you help,but,not for nothing".

"I will go with you,but,not for nothing"

The Juwes kill ,but,not for nothing

The Jewes are not the nitwits that for nothing knitting will not be unknotted knowingly.

JUWES is actually JUDE

The meaning is obscure and the murders were done far from the madding crowd?

Conclusion II: This element is referring to another bit of text in the GSG: the word "Juwes".You started to connect the idiom to the GSG! And you started to give examples containing the word Juwes.

The spelling of the word Juwes is not understood today. People are as confused by it as by the idiom "Not for nothing", which is the example in this thread. But the connection you make is the result of the confusion of 1888!

In 1888, the confusion was as obvious as it is today, in this very thread.

They did not understand the GSG. They did not understand the double negative and the spelling in the word Juwes. They also gave contradictory statements about the double negative, as you did here, now, in 2017, about "Not for nothing". And they could not understand the word Juwes.

Pall Mall Gazette wrote:

"…we find in all the journals a note from Sir C. Warren to the effect that “no language or dialogue is known in which the word “Jews” is spelt “Juwes”. "

Pall Mall Gazette - Saturday 01 December 1888

The reason for their understanding of the word Juwes was exclusively the knowledge about Jews living in Whitechapel, since they could not understand the word Juwes and since they could not understand the text or the expressions in it.

Guessing that it meant "Jews" was a part of their obvious confusion when they tried to understand the GSG.


And remember that all of you probably have a better education than they had!

Thank you for you participation in this excercise.

Best wishes, Pierre

[GUT]

So another load of rubbish.

[GUT]

So what does it mean?

Oh I know it means Pierre is playing silly little games yet again.