Apron placement as intimidation?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jerry,

Inspector Collard, Eddowes’ inquest, Day One—

"It [the body] was then taken to the mortuary and stripped by Mr. Davis, the mortuary-keeper, in the presence of the two doctors [Sequeira and Brown] and myself."

Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown, Eddowes Inquest, Day One—

“The clothes were carefully taken off the body, as described by Inspector Collard.”

Dr. Brown was at the Golden Lane mortuary on the morning of 30th September. He was interviewed there by Thomas Catling, editor of Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper.

Regards,

Simon

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Simon.


What 'time' was this?



What 'time' was the inventory made?

The GS piece, which was in the possession of Dr Phillips had not arrived at the mortuary by 5.20am, and the pieces not matched until the post mortem.

The inventory was made as soon as the body arrived at the mortuary.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,

Inspector Collard, Eddowes’ inquest, Day One—

"It [the body] was then taken to the mortuary and stripped by Mr. Davis, the mortuary-keeper, in the presence of the two doctors [Sequeira and Brown] and myself."

Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown, Eddowes Inquest, Day One—

“The clothes were carefully taken off the body, as described by Inspector Collard.”

Dr. Brown was at the Golden Lane mortuary on the morning of 30th September. He was interviewed there by Thomas Catling, editor of Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper.

Regards,

Simon

Thanks Simon,

So we have many witnesses describing Eddowes wearing an apron before the murder and we have Dr. Brown and Collard testifying she had an apron on her body while dead on the ground in Mitre Square. We also have a portion found in GS that matched the portion on Eddowes' body. So, witnesses before, during and after her murder have her wearing an apron.

Then we have Dr Brown describing the apron as attached by strings and riband around the neck and Charles Warren describing it as a bib. Dr Brown pencils a sketch that really doesn't show a definite apron yet he earlier stated she was wearing one when he examined her.

I guess I can't figure out if you believe she was wearing an apron or that it was not a bib type?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jerry,

We do not have Dr. Brown and Inspector Collard testifying that Eddowes was wearing an apron on her body whilst dead on the ground in Mitre Square. Unless, of course, you know something we don't.

I tend towards Eddowes NOT wearing a big flappy apron, but having a piece of something or other [how could anyone have known whether or not it was a piece of "apron"] loosely tied around her neck.

But I am open to persuasion.

Regards,

Simon

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,

We do not have Dr. Brown and Inspector Collard testifying that Eddowes was wearing an apron on her body whilst dead on the ground in Mitre Square. Unless, of course, you know something we don't.

I tend towards Eddowes NOT wearing a big flappy apron, but having a piece of something or other [how could anyone have known whether or not it was a piece of "apron"] loosely tied around her neck.

But I am open to persuasion.

Regards,

Simon

Lloyds October 7th, 1888

Inspector Collard gave evidence as to his being informed of the murder, and the appearance of the body as he found it lying. He produced the part of the apron found upon the deceased, which corresponded with the part found in Gouldstone-street. He also stated that a number of men were stopped and searched in the street without any result. A house-to-house inquiry had been made in the vicinity of Mitre-square to ascertain if any noise had been heard or any person seen.

This states, found upon the body, but taken with the testimony of other witnesses that she was wearing an apron prior to the murder, doesn't it make sense when Dr. Brown said "I fitted that portion which was spotted with blood to the remaining portion, which was still attached by the strings to the body" that she had an apron on when found dead?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jerry,

Inspector Collard, Eddowes’ inquest, Day One—

"I produce a portion of the apron which deceased was apparently wearing which had been cut through and was found outside her dress."

What could that mean?

Regards,

Simon

[Pierre]

Lloyds October 7th, 1888

Inspector Collard gave evidence as to his being informed of the murder, and the appearance of the body as he found it lying. He produced the part of the apron found upon the deceased, which corresponded with the part found in Gouldstone-street. He also stated that a number of men were stopped and searched in the street without any result. A house-to-house inquiry had been made in the vicinity of Mitre-square to ascertain if any noise had been heard or any person seen.

This states, found upon the body, but taken with the testimony of other witnesses that she was wearing an apron prior to the murder, doesn't it make sense when Dr. Brown said "I fitted that portion which was spotted with blood to the remaining portion, which was still attached by the strings to the body" that she had an apron on when found dead?

Like Lechmere, the apron was found with the body. It was found with a freshly slain victim. Did it also lie at the inquest? It had blood stains on it.

[Pierre]

Hi Jerry,

Inspector Collard, Eddowes’ inquest, Day One—

"I produce a portion of the apron which deceased was apparently wearing which had been cut through and was found outside her dress."

What could that mean?

Regards,

Simon

Outside the dress = the opposite of inside the dress.

It was outside. Not inside.

Not like the hypothesis of Trevor: not portions of apron being carried around inside the dress, for example inside pockets.

It was outside = external.

And yes, that is the original inquest source.

Pierre

[Pierre]

Hi Jerry,

Inspector Collard, Eddowes’ inquest, Day One—

"I produce a portion of the apron which deceased was apparently wearing which had been cut through and was found outside her dress."

What could that mean?

Regards,

Simon

Some questions now.

The apron was "found outside the dress".

1. Did the killer bring the two pieces with him on the night of the double event?

2. Did the killer plan to place a portion of the apron by (beside/upon/outside the dress of) a victim?

3. Did the killer plan to place the other portion of the apron beside a wall?

4. Did the killer plan to write on the wall?

5. If yes on every question:

WHY?

Regards, Pierre

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Jerry,

Inspector Collard, Eddowes’ inquest, Day One—

"I produce a portion of the apron which deceased was apparently wearing which had been cut through and was found outside her dress."

What could that mean?

Regards,

Simon

Are there references in the inquest transcript to both pieces of apron being produced in court? If so, it would surely have been obvious to everyone present whether or not these two portions made up a whole apron.

[Wickerman]

Are there references in the inquest transcript to both pieces of apron being produced in court? If so, it would surely have been obvious to everyone present whether or not these two portions made up a whole apron.

Mr. Crawford. - Could you identify it?
PC Robinson - I could if I saw the whole of it.
A brown paper parcel was produced, from which two pieces of apron were taken and shown to the witness, who said, - To the best of my knowledge and belief that is the apron.
The Times.

[Wickerman]

The GS piece, which was in the possession of Dr Phillips had not arrived at the mortuary by 5.20am, and the pieces not matched until the post mortem.

The inventory was made as soon as the body arrived at the mortuary.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

From your response Trevor, and Simon's lack of the same, we can take it that the actual 'times' previously asserted are in actual fact, not known.

I wasn't looking for opinion, everybody has one of those.

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,

Inspector Collard, Eddowes’ inquest, Day One—

"I produce a portion of the apron which deceased was apparently wearing which had been cut through and was found outside her dress."

What could that mean?

Regards,

Simon

The apron was a layer above her dress and cut through due to the other portion being taken by the killer.

[Joshua Rogan]

Mr. Crawford. - Could you identify it?
PC Robinson - I could if I saw the whole of it.
A brown paper parcel was produced, from which two pieces of apron were taken and shown to the witness, who said, - To the best of my knowledge and belief that is the apron.
The Times.

Thanks Jon. That excerpt from the Times (12th Oct) tallies with other papers' accounts, such as these two;

East London Advertiser 13th Oct
Last time he saw her was at 9 o'clock in the cell. She was wearing a white apron at that time, which he identified with one produced as the one she was wearing. (The apron, which was in two pieces was covered with blood, as if a large knife had been wiped upon it).

Star 11th Oct
Police-constable Robinson proved arresting the deceased for drunkenness on the Saturday afternoon before her death and locking her up in a cell. She was wearing an apron. THE APRON was here produced by the police, in two pieces, covered with blood, and witness identified it. The ghastly reminder of the crime quite upset Mrs. Phillips, the deceased's daughter, who sobbed bitterly on seeing the blood-smeared rag.

[jerryd]

Thanks Jon. That excerpt from the Times (12th Oct) tallies with other papers' accounts, such as these two;

East London Advertiser 13th Oct
Last time he saw her was at 9 o'clock in the cell. She was wearing a white apron at that time, which he identified with one produced as the one she was wearing. (The apron, which was in two pieces was covered with blood, as if a large knife had been wiped upon it).

Star 11th Oct
Police-constable Robinson proved arresting the deceased for drunkenness on the Saturday afternoon before her death and locking her up in a cell. She was wearing an apron. THE APRON was here produced by the police, in two pieces, covered with blood, and witness identified it. The ghastly reminder of the crime quite upset Mrs. Phillips, the deceased's daughter, who sobbed bitterly on seeing the blood-smeared rag.

Add to that PC Hutt's inquest testimony:

[Coroner] In your opinion is that the apron the deceased was wearing? - To the best of my belief it is.
[Coroner] What is the distance from Mitre-square to your station? - About 400 yards.
[Coroner] Do you know the direct route to Flower and Dean-street? - No.
A Juror: Do you search persons who are brought in for drunkenness? - No, but we take from them anything that might be dangerous. I loosened the things round the deceased's neck, and I then saw a white wrapper and a red silk handkerchief.

Is a white wrapper an apron?

EDIT: Looking at old Victorian clothing it appears a "wrapper" is a day dress. What things did he loosen other than a neckerchief around her neck. It sounds like there were more than one "thing" around her neck.